1 00:00:09,755 --> 00:00:12,245 - Near the end of episode eight, I said 2 00:00:12,245 --> 00:00:15,485 that I would go more deeply into what I've learned so far 3 00:00:16,095 --> 00:00:18,845 about the challenges medical researchers 4 00:00:18,865 --> 00:00:21,125 and doctors face as they worked 5 00:00:21,145 --> 00:00:24,205 to develop knowledge about we complex humans. 6 00:00:25,545 --> 00:00:29,845 To me, the story of David Reimer, the boy who was raised 7 00:00:29,905 --> 00:00:33,285 as a girl, looks like a terribly misguided 8 00:00:33,285 --> 00:00:34,365 medical experiment. 9 00:00:35,265 --> 00:00:37,045 His penis was destroyed 10 00:00:37,105 --> 00:00:39,605 by a different doctor in a medical accident 11 00:00:39,625 --> 00:00:41,045 during circumcision, 12 00:00:41,505 --> 00:00:42,965 and his distraught parents 13 00:00:43,425 --> 00:00:45,485 who feared the discrimination David 14 00:00:45,625 --> 00:00:47,205 and his family would receive 15 00:00:47,305 --> 00:00:49,645 as a result searched for an answer. 16 00:00:50,515 --> 00:00:51,525 They found Dr. 17 00:00:51,865 --> 00:00:54,925 Muy and he convinced them to raise him as a girl. 18 00:00:56,985 --> 00:00:59,365 Dr. Money suggested that solution 19 00:00:59,675 --> 00:01:03,805 because he had a theory that gender identity was fluid 20 00:01:04,215 --> 00:01:06,925 until 18 to 24 months of age. 21 00:01:07,865 --> 00:01:11,645 He further believed that David would believe he was a girl 22 00:01:11,985 --> 00:01:15,805 and the society around him would treat him as a girl 23 00:01:16,595 --> 00:01:19,085 only if the parents were consistent. 24 00:01:19,265 --> 00:01:20,685 In following his advice, 25 00:01:21,825 --> 00:01:24,165 he had some evidence from his interviews 26 00:01:24,345 --> 00:01:25,965 of people born intersex 27 00:01:26,385 --> 00:01:29,805 and transgender people that was suggestive of this theory, 28 00:01:30,625 --> 00:01:34,005 but it was still a theory in the early stages of 29 00:01:34,605 --> 00:01:35,725 investigation, I believe, 30 00:01:36,225 --> 00:01:38,765 and not with enough evidence to act on it. 31 00:01:40,265 --> 00:01:44,765 He also, like many other doctors at the time, told parents 32 00:01:44,865 --> 00:01:48,925 of children born intersex to have operations on their bodies 33 00:01:48,985 --> 00:01:51,725 and childhood to make them conform 34 00:01:51,905 --> 00:01:55,245 to the male female classifications of his day. 35 00:01:56,195 --> 00:01:58,765 This was in line with his belief that 36 00:01:58,825 --> 00:02:03,045 how a child is treated from birth has a strong correlation 37 00:02:03,315 --> 00:02:05,285 with the gender identity they see 38 00:02:05,285 --> 00:02:06,965 for themselves into adulthood. 39 00:02:07,905 --> 00:02:12,365 His years long experiment on David was a dismal failure. 40 00:02:13,225 --> 00:02:16,645 Yet as far as I can find, he not only failed 41 00:02:16,745 --> 00:02:18,125 to acknowledge the failure, 42 00:02:18,825 --> 00:02:22,645 but insisted it was a success up to the end of his life. 43 00:02:23,905 --> 00:02:25,845 As I said in previous episodes, 44 00:02:26,465 --> 00:02:30,645 all this was done under the widespread cultural beliefs 45 00:02:31,195 --> 00:02:34,485 that being a male or female, cisgender 46 00:02:34,625 --> 00:02:37,725 and heterosexual human was normal, 47 00:02:38,585 --> 00:02:41,445 and that being born intersex, homosexual, 48 00:02:41,705 --> 00:02:44,125 or transgender was abnormal 49 00:02:44,425 --> 00:02:47,525 and should be fixed in some way or hidden. 50 00:02:49,165 --> 00:02:52,045 I don't fault doctor money just for being wrong. 51 00:02:52,105 --> 00:02:55,685 In his belief that gender identity is mostly fluid 52 00:02:55,825 --> 00:02:59,085 for the first 18 to 24 months of a baby's life, 53 00:03:00,295 --> 00:03:02,045 human life is complex, 54 00:03:02,625 --> 00:03:05,485 and over the last hundred years in particular, 55 00:03:06,265 --> 00:03:09,805 we humans have held many inaccurate theories about 56 00:03:09,945 --> 00:03:12,285 how our bodies develop and how they work. 57 00:03:13,265 --> 00:03:17,885 The challenge is how to react when we begin to get evidence 58 00:03:18,355 --> 00:03:20,285 that our theories are partly 59 00:03:20,305 --> 00:03:23,285 or mostly wrong, especially when applied 60 00:03:23,305 --> 00:03:24,925 to a specific situation. 61 00:03:26,495 --> 00:03:27,645 Let's look at how Dr. 62 00:03:27,655 --> 00:03:30,045 Money proceeded in David Reimer's case. 63 00:03:31,865 --> 00:03:34,325 He periodically checked in with the parents 64 00:03:34,745 --> 00:03:37,125 who tried their best to implement the program, 65 00:03:38,105 --> 00:03:40,685 but it wasn't going exactly the way Dr. 66 00:03:40,695 --> 00:03:41,725 Money predicted. 67 00:03:42,505 --> 00:03:46,445 As John Lopinto says on pages 58 through 59 68 00:03:46,985 --> 00:03:50,125 of the Kindle edition of his book, the Boy Who was raised 69 00:03:50,145 --> 00:03:53,045 as a girl, Janet noticed David, 70 00:03:53,435 --> 00:03:57,605 whom they were calling Brenda sometimes being tomboyish 71 00:03:57,985 --> 00:04:01,605 and sometimes trying to please her by acting more like 72 00:04:01,635 --> 00:04:03,765 what we're seeing by the culture as a girl. 73 00:04:04,905 --> 00:04:07,365 At other times, David would be tidier 74 00:04:07,425 --> 00:04:09,725 and try to help a bit in the kitchen as it was. 75 00:04:09,725 --> 00:04:12,565 Mother described it and 76 00:04:12,585 --> 00:04:15,565 to quote Op Pinto in her letters to Dr. 77 00:04:15,575 --> 00:04:19,845 Money describing Brenda's progress, Janet made sure 78 00:04:19,865 --> 00:04:23,205 to emphasize those more girly moments so 79 00:04:23,205 --> 00:04:25,525 that the psychologist would know that Janet 80 00:04:25,665 --> 00:04:27,805 and Ron were doing everything they could 81 00:04:27,825 --> 00:04:29,085 to implement his plans. 82 00:04:30,385 --> 00:04:31,885 She also informed money 83 00:04:31,965 --> 00:04:34,005 of her daughter's masculine leanings, 84 00:04:34,385 --> 00:04:38,285 but the psychologist assured her that this was mere tomboy. 85 00:04:40,265 --> 00:04:43,285 In other words, David's parents wanted the doctor 86 00:04:43,385 --> 00:04:45,365 to believe they were following his advice, 87 00:04:45,785 --> 00:04:48,525 but also sent him some contrary information. 88 00:04:50,465 --> 00:04:52,525 But even when she reported ways 89 00:04:52,555 --> 00:04:55,885 that David was not acting like a stereotypical girl, 90 00:04:56,455 --> 00:04:58,165 money just wrote it off. 91 00:04:58,695 --> 00:05:02,605 After all, what does it mean for a girl to be tomboyish? 92 00:05:03,995 --> 00:05:05,685 Wikipedia gives this definition. 93 00:05:07,025 --> 00:05:09,605 Tomboy is a term used for girls 94 00:05:10,145 --> 00:05:12,925 or young women with masculine traits. 95 00:05:13,625 --> 00:05:17,645 It can include wearing androgynous or unfeminine clothing 96 00:05:18,265 --> 00:05:21,765 and engaging in physical sports or other activities 97 00:05:21,825 --> 00:05:25,405 and behaviors usually associated with boys or men. 98 00:05:27,225 --> 00:05:29,525 Now, words like androgynous and unfeminine 99 00:05:29,785 --> 00:05:32,245 and ideas about what are feminine clothes 100 00:05:32,425 --> 00:05:36,685 and feminine sports versus behaviors associated with boys 101 00:05:36,745 --> 00:05:40,205 or men have shifted over the last 200 years 102 00:05:40,985 --> 00:05:44,365 as have beliefs about the proper role of women in society, 103 00:05:45,635 --> 00:05:47,605 even with the best of intentions. 104 00:05:48,305 --> 00:05:51,645 Dr. Money who saw David in person infrequently 105 00:05:52,385 --> 00:05:55,645 was making a decision to encourage David's parents 106 00:05:55,825 --> 00:06:00,165 to continue following his advice in part on the basis 107 00:06:00,305 --> 00:06:04,805 of decidedly fuzzy and unscientific ideas in this case. 108 00:06:06,345 --> 00:06:09,285 In addition, there is evidence in his book about David 109 00:06:09,605 --> 00:06:13,645 Reimer's life where John Cola Pinto gives numerous examples 110 00:06:13,645 --> 00:06:16,845 of David and his brother resisting Dr. 111 00:06:16,845 --> 00:06:18,685 Money when he met with them in person. 112 00:06:20,585 --> 00:06:24,765 On pages 84 to 85, he tells a story of Dr. 113 00:06:24,815 --> 00:06:26,165 Money asking David 114 00:06:26,265 --> 00:06:28,405 and his brother about the differences 115 00:06:28,405 --> 00:06:29,805 between boys and girls. 116 00:06:30,585 --> 00:06:34,605 In this case, he had shown them pictures of naked children 117 00:06:34,905 --> 00:06:38,965 and adults because he believed that this was a way 118 00:06:39,025 --> 00:06:41,725 to solidify gender identity in children. 119 00:06:42,665 --> 00:06:43,765 His theory told him 120 00:06:43,795 --> 00:06:46,205 that talking about their genitals was a 121 00:06:46,205 --> 00:06:47,365 way to accomplish this. 122 00:06:48,545 --> 00:06:50,605 The incident Lopinto relates 123 00:06:51,405 --> 00:06:55,325 happened when they were seven years old when Dr. 124 00:06:55,335 --> 00:06:57,885 Money asked David what the difference was 125 00:06:57,885 --> 00:06:59,365 between boys and girls. 126 00:07:00,015 --> 00:07:02,685 David was evasive, says Kto, 127 00:07:03,115 --> 00:07:07,165 talking about things like clothing and toys, but Dr. 128 00:07:07,175 --> 00:07:11,205 Money kept asking questions, trying to elicit answers, 129 00:07:11,405 --> 00:07:13,405 having to do with their sex organs. 130 00:07:14,505 --> 00:07:19,125 His persistence led David to blurt out that girls are flat 131 00:07:19,355 --> 00:07:20,365 between their legs, 132 00:07:20,785 --> 00:07:23,565 but that also blurred out, but we're twins. 133 00:07:25,305 --> 00:07:27,915 When Dr. Money asked David what he bet, 134 00:07:28,055 --> 00:07:30,835 he listed things like being left-handed 135 00:07:31,215 --> 00:07:33,915 and the similarity in their voices in their eyes. 136 00:07:35,745 --> 00:07:40,715 Then Kop Pinto reports too ashamed to speak directly 137 00:07:40,715 --> 00:07:41,755 of her genitals. 138 00:07:42,335 --> 00:07:45,915 She, by which he means David, left it up to money 139 00:07:45,935 --> 00:07:50,715 to settle the mystery of how two such completely similar 140 00:07:51,235 --> 00:07:55,035 children could also be different in their anatomic sex. 141 00:07:56,135 --> 00:07:59,475 But money failed or declined to catch Brenda's meaning 142 00:07:59,975 --> 00:08:03,075 and instead returned to a different schedule of inquiry, 143 00:08:03,455 --> 00:08:07,555 the list of prepared questions about toys, school, 144 00:08:07,855 --> 00:08:10,395 and fighting that he worked through at each visit. 145 00:08:12,535 --> 00:08:13,715 In other words, Dr. 146 00:08:13,725 --> 00:08:16,795 Money repeatedly passed over concrete evidence 147 00:08:16,985 --> 00:08:19,315 that his experiments might not be working, 148 00:08:20,015 --> 00:08:23,355 and instead of approaching David from a curiosity point 149 00:08:23,355 --> 00:08:25,155 of view, continued 150 00:08:25,155 --> 00:08:27,755 to push him into becoming the girl he thought 151 00:08:27,765 --> 00:08:28,915 David needed to be. 152 00:08:30,175 --> 00:08:32,195 In addition to this, Dr. 153 00:08:32,245 --> 00:08:34,795 Money was dishonest with David's parents. 154 00:08:35,705 --> 00:08:38,275 They didn't know he was showing the boys pictures 155 00:08:38,295 --> 00:08:39,395 of naked adults 156 00:08:39,735 --> 00:08:43,075 or the way he would sometimes yell at them when they didn't 157 00:08:43,075 --> 00:08:44,755 give him the answers he wanted. 158 00:08:46,035 --> 00:08:48,955 I find it hard to believe they would've gone along 159 00:08:48,955 --> 00:08:52,955 with him showing their children such pictures that he did 160 00:08:52,975 --> 00:08:56,245 so without their knowledge was evidence in my mind 161 00:08:56,715 --> 00:08:58,885 that he was in acting an experiment 162 00:08:58,955 --> 00:09:02,205 that he knew David's parents would not have agreed to 163 00:09:02,985 --> 00:09:05,965 had they known the full truth about what he meant to do. 164 00:09:07,115 --> 00:09:09,845 That was dishonest of him to say the least. 165 00:09:12,055 --> 00:09:15,965 After reading John Kop Pinto's book, it is hard for me 166 00:09:16,025 --> 00:09:17,525 to excuse how Dr. 167 00:09:17,525 --> 00:09:21,765 Money reacted when the evidence in front of his eyes hinted 168 00:09:21,995 --> 00:09:25,445 that he was making a mistake he plowed on 169 00:09:25,505 --> 00:09:28,845 as though he were right rather than reevaluating the 170 00:09:29,245 --> 00:09:30,525 situation as he should have. 171 00:09:31,825 --> 00:09:34,805 Making a clear statement like this feels easy, 172 00:09:35,845 --> 00:09:38,785 but I think it is important to be thoughtful as well. 173 00:09:39,615 --> 00:09:42,265 When you see something you don't fully understand, 174 00:09:42,645 --> 00:09:44,345 it is time to get curious. 175 00:09:45,805 --> 00:09:48,905 Dr. Money's theories that gender identity was highly 176 00:09:49,465 --> 00:09:51,625 flexible in the first two years of life. 177 00:09:52,055 --> 00:09:54,545 Were not the only ones at existence at the time. 178 00:09:55,315 --> 00:09:57,585 There were other researchers who thought the role 179 00:09:57,585 --> 00:10:00,665 of nature in developing gender identity was stronger. 180 00:10:01,685 --> 00:10:03,585 One of them was Dr. Milton Diamond, 181 00:10:04,085 --> 00:10:05,625 who deeply disagreed with Dr. 182 00:10:05,655 --> 00:10:06,865 Money's hypothesis. 183 00:10:08,505 --> 00:10:10,505 Although the debate between doctors money 184 00:10:10,525 --> 00:10:12,225 and Diamond has been presented 185 00:10:12,525 --> 00:10:15,105 as a stark nature versus nurtured debate, 186 00:10:15,605 --> 00:10:17,785 it was actually more nuanced than 187 00:10:17,785 --> 00:10:20,945 that if you read all the articles they both wrote. 188 00:10:21,645 --> 00:10:23,185 But at some point, Dr. 189 00:10:23,195 --> 00:10:26,145 Money seems to have gotten attached to his theory 190 00:10:26,645 --> 00:10:29,545 and oversimplify even his own research. 191 00:10:31,345 --> 00:10:35,225 I have begun reading a new book titled The Man Who Invented 192 00:10:35,325 --> 00:10:39,385 Gender Engaging the Ideas of John Money written 193 00:10:39,485 --> 00:10:40,585 by Terry Goldie. 194 00:10:41,325 --> 00:10:44,825 On page eight, Goldie sums up the influence Dr. 195 00:10:44,835 --> 00:10:48,225 Money had in his field in this way, quote, 196 00:10:49,365 --> 00:10:51,945 he became the expert on sexuality, 197 00:10:52,335 --> 00:10:56,225 whether in the popular press in such publications as Time 198 00:10:56,405 --> 00:11:00,705 or Playboy or in the courts in 1977, 199 00:11:01,205 --> 00:11:06,025 the Johns Hopkins newsletter proclaimed that when Dr. 200 00:11:06,075 --> 00:11:08,705 Money Speaks, the whole world listens. 201 00:11:10,525 --> 00:11:13,225 How did Dr. Money become so influential? 202 00:11:13,925 --> 00:11:16,185 How did he get so attached to his theories? 203 00:11:16,765 --> 00:11:19,345 Was this mostly a question of his personal history 204 00:11:19,345 --> 00:11:20,625 and psychological makeup? 205 00:11:21,455 --> 00:11:22,545 What role, if any, 206 00:11:22,685 --> 00:11:25,425 did the cultural stereotypes about sexuality 207 00:11:25,565 --> 00:11:30,065 and gender identity in the 1950s and 1960s play in this? 208 00:11:31,845 --> 00:11:35,385 In the next episode, I will look at Terry Goldie's book, 209 00:11:35,805 --> 00:11:39,425 but also John Money's man and woman, boy 210 00:11:39,445 --> 00:11:42,425 and Girl, which he wrote along with one 211 00:11:42,425 --> 00:11:43,865 of his research assistants. 212 00:11:44,985 --> 00:11:46,985 I do not expect to come up 213 00:11:46,985 --> 00:11:49,865 with some definitive explanation for how Dr. 214 00:11:49,935 --> 00:11:52,465 Money's mistake with David Reimer happened, 215 00:11:53,305 --> 00:11:54,685 but I think it is important 216 00:11:54,825 --> 00:11:58,605 to know more about the man than just how he has been defined 217 00:11:58,665 --> 00:11:59,685 by this mistake. 218 00:12:00,795 --> 00:12:04,845 Context matters in situation like this if we are to come 219 00:12:04,905 --> 00:12:07,405 to a more nuanced understanding of 220 00:12:07,465 --> 00:12:09,045 how things like this happened. 221 00:12:10,505 --> 00:12:15,005 In the meantime, please remember that you can follow links 222 00:12:15,025 --> 00:12:18,645 to books and articles I referenced at separate sections 223 00:12:18,645 --> 00:12:23,565 of my website, emily p newberry.substack.com. 224 00:12:24,425 --> 00:12:28,485 You can also find it by searching for sacred Gyre Substack.