-
- Hi, I am Tom Sheridan of Sheridan training.
Anyone who's been involved in successful change management
will tell you that their success depends on a great story,
and that story has to be crystal clear on the who, what,
when, where, and why.
That story has to be easily repeatable,
and that story needs to tap into the emotions
of those affected by or who are driving the change.
I have an idea why not use regular video updates
to report on progress
and share people's stories
as they experience the change in progress and success.
You can use your phone or camera
and post the stories for the company,
but if you really wanna up your game
and shoot like a pro, listen
to this advice from Steve De Group six time Emmy winning
owner of Dutch Productions.
Steve's gonna talk you through his thought process
for capturing the emotions and sizzle for your stories,
and that will keep people motivated.
So Steve, thanks for joining us today.
I really appreciate you giving us your time.
- Happy to be here. Thank you, Tom. So,
- Steve, this is not the first time we've had a conversation
about, uh, visual storytelling.
And, and one of the terms that you,
you mentioned in our conversations in the past is story arc.
So I think I understand story arc,
but what do you mean by story arc?
- Well, uh, story arc is a, is a phrase that's, uh, been
around for a long time,
and it applies to the ways that you write stories,
write movies, screenplays,
and do the same thing in the visual arts.
Uh, whether you're cutting a spot, uh, or a feature
or a documentary, long form, short form, it doesn't matter.
You, you're, you need to take people on a journey.
And, um, so it's important that you are,
you set up a dilemma or the cliffhanger
and dangle a carrot at the top,
and then tell people the story that leads up
to a climactic moment and then a resolution.
So everything that we try to do when we're trying
to tell a story, uh, has that pronounced arc.
And, and the viewer understands right from the beginning
that they are on that journey, that,
and following that story,
and they're gonna, that is what driving them
to continue to watch.
And that's so important.
- How do you bring a story to life?
Can you just tell me, uh, a day in the life, uh, of,
of a production and, and how you get started and, and,
and where you start from and how you create that roadmap?
- Well, I, I think it depends on the type of project
that you're working on.
But if you're working with a client,
the most important thing that we can do at the start is
to listen and listen to what the messages that they want
to relay, uh, the themes that they want to hit on, um,
and, and listen to the words that they use in describing
what they are doing.
Whether they're selling a product, selling a service,
highlighting an event, whatever that is,
completely immerse yourself from their point of view so
that you're not coming back to them with creative
that doesn't make sense to where they're going.
From there. If we're telling a story, we need to figure out
who we're going to help us tell that story,
and who are the people that have the authority
to tell the story in the correct way.
And so, if we're gonna do a series of interviews, uh,
for a longer form piece, we, we, we write up that list
of people, we reach out to those people or their people
and, uh, put together an interview schedule
and a shoot schedule where we can execute those interviews,
uh, all the while analyzing the kinds of support materials
that we'll need to help tell that story,
whether it's archival footage
or new shooting of new scenic shots, establishing shots, um,
shots of technology, any, anything that applies
to the stories, will there be animations that are needed
where there'll be recreations that we need to shoot?
So there's a lot of things that might go into play in,
in telling that story,
but it's, it's most important to, from the start, to listen
to the client and,
and then organize around that as you lay out
how story's gonna be told in their words,
but with your creativity.
- So if I'm kicking off a campaign, what's,
how do I start that story?
What's the first thing I, I've gotta start with?
'cause I would assume you'd have to get
their attention right away.
- Well, not only would you want
to get their attention right, right away,
but you also want to have a sense of reassurance,
I would think, to that audience.
That there's a place for everyone
in our new plan to move ahead.
And, and then I think enticing them with that new direction,
that new technology, technology, the opportunity to learn
and grow, uh, all those things would have to be teased
because you're about to hear,
I would assume more about it in the,
in the overall presentation.
I mean, those pieces are tend to be very short.
They're like a minute, a minute and a half.
And by the time of that close of those 90 seconds,
everyone in the audience should be really pumped
that they're there and part of this
company as they move forward.
- How do you bring the story to life?
Because I noticed in a lot of your pieces, uh,
there are narratives by the people involved.
- Well, we specialize in non-scripted series generally.
So we use that in everything that we do,
whether we're doing a short form piece
or a, uh, even a spot.
Although spots are generally scripted.
We focus on human stories
that people tell in the first person ideally.
And we try to connect people, products,
and services through those human stories, whether it's,
um, in the medical field
and they're touting a, a new drug with new benefits,
or it's just a, a story about a nonprofit
that has changed their lives.
So we try to get in front of people who have been impacted
by these products and these services and these nonprofits,
and have them tell their heartfelt,
often moving emotional stories in the first person.
Let them think as they're talking on camera, that it's just
me and them talking to each other,
and we're, we're talking
to each other in a very personal way.
We kind of forget that there's camera and lights all around.
And I try to ask as, as an interviewer
questions in a very simplified way.
And interviewers often make the mistake of
asking long questions
and even sometimes trying to impress the interviewee with
how much they know about a topic.
And that's exactly what you don't wanna do,
because then the interviewee doesn't feel the need to spill
that back to you.
And as an interviewer, you're trying to get people
to tell the complete story, the whole story,
fill in the blanks, and eventually immerse themselves in
that moment again, that they retell with emotion, heartfelt.
You can hear it in their voice, you see it in their eyes
sometimes, obviously truly just crying
or laughing on camera and, and showing those emotions.
And, and that's when you really know
you have gold on camera.
- How should I prep them for that interview?
I mean, clearly they need to know why I am coming
and pointing a camera in their direction.
Right? What, how do you prep for those talks? Y
- Yeah, I, I mean, I like to certainly give people
that I'm going to interview an overview of
what we're talking about so
that they're in the right head space.
But I don't want to give too much away.
I don't want to a, I don't want
to send them questions beforehand.
I have rarely found that has worked.
And often I've had clients that I work with, so they're,
they're the ones who are gathering the people I'll be
interviewing, and I will submit questions to my client,
but I will ask them not to send the questions
to the interviewee.
And sometimes they don't listen to me.
So I'll get in with the interview
and I'll start going through the questions.
And the questions are just a guide,
because you don't wanna be tied to your questions,
and you want to be constantly looking
at the person you're interviewing rather than your notes.
You wanna make sure that they see your eyes glued to them.
And when I interview someone who's already seen the
questions, they tend to wanna recite their answers,
and they're more, their mind is more focused on,
what did I write rather than, what should I say?
So at times, I have thrown them a curve ball
by throwing out my questions
and try to just ask other questions off of what they say.
And it tends to get them to be a little bit more relaxed
and then answer the questions from their
heart once in a while.
If I, if there's an important question
that I have written out beforehand and I know their answer,
or I, I know that they prepared an answer, I will just say,
well, go ahead, pick up your piece of paper
and read me your answer.
And if they do it smoothly enough, I'll use that anyway.
It's still their words, but I'll of course, we'll have
to cover the whole section with B roll
or other shots, obviously.
So it's just a smarter move, not to share your questions,
but I, I do prep them in terms of telling them, you know,
I'm going to ask you about these difficult moments
or this, that great moment that you experienced,
and so that they know that that's where we're going.
And that's the whole point of the story.
They're not, I don't wanna surprise people
where I might come off as being disingenuous and,
and manipulative with their life
- Suppose or just having a bad day.
Uh, and, and they're trying to engineer the answers,
uh, a little too much.
How do you get them to rethink it?
Or how do you, do you take a break?
Do you tell 'em to take a breath?
And, and, and there's risk there involved too, right?
Because all of a sudden they may think, oh,
it doesn't like what I'm doing.
- Well, sometimes you, you meet people that aren't used
to telling stories, but in our business, we're editing.
So in the edit room, you can,
you can move the order in which they say things
and it enhances the story.
So I might, it's not unusual for me to find something
that someone said at the end of their interview
that is actually the perfect setup
to start their story.
So as long as we know that we have that freedom and power,
and we stick to the integrity of the story,
we're not manipulating their words to say something.
They're not saying we can present their story in a more
effective way than maybe they did live.
That's the beauty of what we're doing right now,
where you're gonna edit me to make me sound good.
I am always working to edit, uh, my pieces
where my people will sound the most concise,
the most creative, the most emotional,
and the most attention grabbing, so
that when I hear a line at the front of the piece
that actually sets up the whole story, then I know
that I'm more effectively telling that story.
And that's really what our job is in post-production.
- So that leads me
to another question about the different phases
of storytelling, which is pre-production, uh, production
and post-production.
But what are some of the, the checklist mentally or,
or literally you use with your company
or with yourself in pre-production?
- Well, in, in pre-production, once I've already,
I understand the project at hand, I'll write out an outline
of what, what my piece is gonna be about
and how I would plan to tell it.
Then I write up my interview list, who do I plan
to interview, and what are the shots we need to get,
otherwise, the B roll shots, um,
- Can you just talk about B roll shots a little bit?
I don't know what that means. Sure.
- Well, B roll shots are if the a, if the A
roll is the interview,
the b roll shots are the shots that compliment
what those people say.
As you're listening to them continuing to speak, we're going
to a second shot to support what they're talking about.
So it might be, if they're talking about, um, a summer camp,
you'll see kids playing at the summer camp,
or specifically if they're talking about the swim program,
we're gonna show shots
of kids swimming at their summer camp.
So I need to make sure that we're planning to shoot
those kids swimming and having fun,
and we're getting plenty of smiles or,
or good looking swimmers.
I, and when I say good looking, I mean effective swimmers
looking like they're benefiting from this swim
program at the camp.
So those are b-roll shots that we need to get.
And I'll have a list of shots that we need to cover.
So we're, we're covering a, a new drug release.
We might get shots of, of chemists, uh, looking at charts
or x-rays or what have you that help tell that story.
And, um, we need to make sure that we can get them,
whether we're filming them
or whether we're securing them through stock footage houses,
those are shots that we need to get
and all are all options, depending on what our budgets are
and what our story is.
- It seems like a lot of planning. It
- Is a lot of planning, but the more planning you do,
the more time you save in at, in the actual production,
and it's critical that you have a plan
and you specifically move forward to execute that plan.
You have to be adaptable to things that happen that are
unforeseen and you don't fall apart.
Uh, when it starts to rain
or when someone doesn't show up or what have you.
You always need to have a plan B.
- So you've got a list of every shot and,
and the things you need to think about
and a plan B just in case things don't go right,
- Yes, you have a shot list of things that you need
to shoot, and if you can't get a certain shot, then you
know, you'll ha if you're an experienced producer director,
you'll know you can get them at some other in some other
way, or it's on some other day,
- Right?
Because if without the list, if you go into post-production
and realize you didn't have a shot,
you've got trouble on your hands, right?
- It's, it's too late in many ways.
And then you're, then you're making changes against, uh,
you know, really what the desire the client is
and what you want to do.
And that's shame on you.
You know, you need to, you need to have a written out list.
You literally check them off as you do them.
- So if I'm a novice, what, what's your advice for,
for someone who has to think that through?
Are there any templates that I can use?
- You shoot things in the order that
is convenient to shooting them?
Not in the order of the piece, of course.
So going back to the summer camp,
if the swimming is in the morning,
you're getting all your swimming shots,
and you need to make sure that you check them off
as they happen because arts and crafts is a two,
and you're gonna be over there filming arts and crafts,
and you have specific shots that you need.
Now you want to be efficient in the way that you shoot,
and you want to shoot more than you're gonna use.
But it's important to know
as you're looking at the monitor of what your
camera person is shooting,
or if you're shooting it yourself, you should, uh,
develop the skill to know that here's a shot
and the action takes place.
And you know, I've got it. I have that shot.
So you can check it off.
And sometimes it just takes a few minutes.
If you need a single person swimming in the pool
and you've got that shot, there's no need
to spend another half hour trying
to get more swimming shots.
When you only need one, you need to make sure
that you only need one.
It's, it's, it's important to shoot more than the one,
but you don't want to shoot
for an hour when you only need one shot.
If you've got it, you can, you need to be confident enough
to say, okay, now I'm gonna move on to the next thing.
- So before you do any production at all,
capture any shots in the field, you really need to revisit
that story arc that you created,
or the story you intend to tell,
or the, the, the pull through for the story
before you go out and get those shots.
Or you need to keep that in mind as you're shooting, right?
- Yes. The story arc is gonna be developed mostly from
the words in your script
and the interviews, words, interviewees words, the,
the B roll shooting,
the supporting materials are just helping to reinforce
what those words are.
And there might be a way that you shoot things to add
to the drama or the reveal that you can think about
creatively out there in the way that you shoot things.
But, um, most of the, the hooks
of your story are from the words in the end.
Writing is everything, the words that you use.
And when you're using someone else's words,
you're in the edit room, you have an opportunity
to basically write the story with their words.
And that remains the most incredible
responsibility and,
and beautiful, uh, creative tool
that we have always had to you,
- You do it well, it, it pulls through all of your pieces.
I mean, you're a master at it.
And, and then you just mentioned the, the B-roll shots.
I, you know, I hadn't even thought about that.
I was so focused on, well, interviewing the person
and getting them to, you know, say the things
that support the story you want to tell,
but the, the, the, the B-roll shots, the footage
of the kids jumping into the, into the lake, you know, off
of the board in the morning through the sunshine,
while the person is telling the story.
So you cut from them to that B-roll.
God, that is so important,
- Right?
And the example that you just laid out
with kids jumping into the lake, uh, people tend,
when they're filming themselves, they tend to think
that they really need to do,
I'm the camera person, I need to do a lot.
And the truth is, is that sometimes a locked off shot
where you see the sun and you see the trees,
and you see the backs of the kids as they're about
to jump in, that's the whole shot.
So the camera person doesn't feel like they have to go move,
you know, you're not capturing them jumping off,
you're capturing the wide shot.
And so I'm a big fan of just the locked off shot from behind
in that situation, or a slight creep left
to right, or right to left.
But you're, you're capturing the whole beauty.
I'm, I'm a fan of subtle movements.
I don't want a camera guy
that is then gonna film people moving around.
If you're, if you're covering a basketball game, yeah,
once in a while to see the sh the ball go up
and you're following the ball into the net, okay, fine.
But in the, in the scope of a, a more thoughtful
sequence of words, you want to shoot things
as an observer in a creative, artistic way.
So be, why don't be afraid to be wide,
and so that you see the scene, and, and so
therefore, the, the job of the shooter is
to just capture the scene, not necessarily every nuance
of, of what is going on in that scene.
- And that just sucks you in.
I mean, I, I've watched your pieces
and you sometimes start that way, um, with some narration,
and it pulls me right in,
because of course, you're inside of the action
or whatever the emotion of that moment is right away.
Can you talk to me about those shots?
You talked about the wide shot and,
and what are those different shots called?
So if I'm gonna go out and shoot a piece, yes.
I've got the interview shot,
and I want to talk about the one shot or the two shot
or whatever, whatever you use when you interview people.
But can you talk to me about, uh, the different shots,
an establishing shot or a transition
or cutaway, whatever it is that you, that you do.
I know a little bit about it just 'cause I'm a fan of it.
Um, but can you talk to me as a pro about some
of the shots you try to capture, just like you, you did
with the wide shot and,
and what, and what you're looking to do.
- You are heading on a, a lot of the terms.
I mean, um, it's important
to always have a wide establishing shot of every scene.
It's usually the first thing I try to shoot.
And, uh, whether that is a wide shot of
the scene where the people are,
or the where the, the scene I'm about to shoot is,
or whether even an exterior shot of a building in which
this takes place can suffice.
We just need to give people a perspective.
And it's often a pause in the story
or a transition in the story where we we're leaving one
aspect and we're, we're moving to a new location,
and there should be a couple of beats, maybe a music change,
and we see an establishing shot that tells the viewer, oh,
we're, we're going on to another chapter.
Uh, or there's a slight tweak in the story
that's about to happen.
From there, you go
and try to, in the most creative way,
cover whatever you're filming.
And often, uh, it's not unusual
to shoot people at their office
for corporate videos at work.
So have them engage in actions
that they normally do at their desks
or in the conference room, or in presenting to others.
So if you were to film a,
a scene in a conference room at a presentation,
you may not be listening to what they're saying,
but you want to establish that this person is a leader,
and he, and she's talking to people at the table.
And, and so you'll shoot, uh, maybe a wide shot
of the exterior of the building,
then you'll shoot a wide shot of the conference room,
then you'll shoot a tight shot of her speaking,
you'll make sure you'll shoot tight shots
of people listening to her at the table.
And from there, you're kind of, you're covering everything
that you need to from what you're trying to tell
and what she's trying to tell.
Now, I often like to record people
and what they're saying, so we have a little, little audio
underneath, whether we're using that audio up full or not.
It's always important to have that audio.
Sometimes we shoot in what we call high speed,
which is actually slow-mo.
Uh, it's a way to heighten the dramatics
of a certain shot.
The texture of the footage enhances that as well.
The drama of the moment, when you do that, you often
sacrifice being able to record with audio.
Of course, if you're playing it back in slowmo,
you're not gonna use the audio.
But, uh, those are all things that you need
to consider when you're shooting.
And how can we film this?
I want to get a little audio underneath.
Okay, we're gonna shoot in 60 frames.
We'll have the option to slow it down
and have it still look great and recorded audio,
or if we need to slow it down further,
maybe we won't have that option with audio.
Those are all things that come into play.
But at that point, I've covered that
conference room scene in, in every way
that I can possibly do.
You might want to shoot the person speaking at the front
of the room, and you're, you move the camera slowly from
behind people who are, whose backs are to the camera,
and they're listening to the person.
So those are all creative ways that you can shoot a certain
scene as simple as a conference room.
And anybody could do that, whether you're doing it
with a professional crew
or whether you're, uh, filming it with your iPhone.
Those are all shots that you can get.
There's the, there's the larger productions
where you're using higher end cameras,
and then there are other productions
where we're using nothing more than an iPhone.
So, um, you use an iPhone, well,
I generally try not to,
but there are plenty of people who do.
And the the images are remarkable.
Often people use iPhones as a supplement to
what they're shooting out.
With more professional grade cameras,
if you set your camera video specs to 4K,
you can still deliver material that plays best on a screen
by using those extra pixel dimensions
to fit within your vertical display.
Uh, when you shoot it this way, you can only, you're limited
to being able to shoot it
or play it back in that vertical format.
And it's not quite as versatile as I'd like.
So it's important that if you use your, if you're filming
with an iPhone, I think it's important to set things to 4K
to shoot horizontally, to, to bring a tripod
and a gimbal so that you can get smooth moves.
A gimbal is a way to move the camera wet
around in a more smooth manner than just your hands.
And two, properly light, even with a basic light,
would be a good idea.
And most importantly, when using an iPhone, the biggest
fallback is audio.
People forget how important audio is.
So go on Amazon
and pick up, uh, a $40, um,
mic kit, la lavalier mic kit,
and that plugs into your iPhone,
and you will get so much better audio than you do from the
microphone that's on the phone itself.
And you'll see that in the lower end productions.
The most noticeable difference is the audio,
not the video. It,
- It absolutely is.
And they're so cheap and accessible.
And I used one,
and you helped me with, uh, with, with
how I should be using my iPhone when I shot the video for,
uh, the piece on my website.
And, uh, and it made all the difference in the world.
And just, just using the, the right, a lavalier
that plugs into the bottom
of my iPhone just made all the difference in the world.
Mm-Hmm, - .
- So, for all the things that you just talked about,
which were wonderful, and,
and I think you can see many of the examples of
what you're talking about.
Well, first of all, on your website, right?
Dutch productions, you can go there
and check some of those things
out that Steve's talking about here.
But, you know, if you watch a TV commercial,
you watch a movie and you watch them pan to something,
you know, and then go into a tight shot,
you can replicate those.
But again, I just want to take it back to the very beginning
of when you're planning those shots
for the very things that you just said.
So what kind of shots might you want
to capture in the context of the story?
What equipment am I going to need?
How early do I need to get there?
How should I test those things?
Should I bring extra batteries?
So you really do need to,
to think all the little details through, right?
Because then you can focus on the, the storytelling,
the visual art or visual storytelling, uh, as opposed to,
oh my gosh, I don't know if we're gonna have enough, uh,
a battery to, to do the entire shoot.
- When you're a one man band
and you're doing everything, you'll be reminded as to
how difficult each aspects of these jobs are
to do really well at the highest level.
And it's a tall order to be the guy who's in charge
of making sure the batteries are charged
and also telling the story in the most effective way.
I mean, uh, it's a, if it, it's a difficult challenge.
The more you do it, the better you'll be at it,
and you'll get into a routine.
But generally with us, we're hiring crews,
or we have access to crews that are used to their routine
and the, and the demands of their job.
And they have worked on it every day for years
to the point where everything is automated.
They have their cameras set up where with a flick, a flick
of a couple buttons.
They're changing modes in the way
that they're shooting a scene.
And we've talked about how we want to cha
how we wanna shoot certain things
so they can adjust quickly out in the field.
And we're not spending time flicking through buttons.
- Now, suppose I am lucky enough to be able
to hire a production company like a Dutch Productions.
What do you need from them?
Or what should I be asking a production company or,
or talking to them about if I have the ability to hire one?
- Well, I think the, the first thing
that you wanna do when you're searching
for a production company is to find one that
has done pieces similar to what you're looking to do.
Mm-Hmm, , that's the most important thing.
So you can see their sensitivity to the details
that are important to you.
From there, you, you may want to get an idea of
where they are cost-wise
and what they're, what realm they're usually,
what world they, they live in.
Um, because there's a great variety in terms of
what each company brings to the table,
whether they have on staff shooters
or not, uh, graphic designers or not,
and the kinds of costs that, that usually represents.
And for the companies that have been around a while, I mean,
it's not unusual for production companies to, to bring in
specialties or special talents according
to the project that's at hand.
So a big company that has a lot
of people on staff is not necessarily the best company
for your production,
because they're gonna want
to use the people that are on staff.
The graphic designers may not be the perfect look
for your product or your service.
The level of shooters may not be the same as that you,
that you need as the ones
that are on staff at a production company.
So often a production company, a smaller production company,
that, that is more flexible
and versatile, who can hire the specialists that are perfect
for your project, might be the best option for you.
But you need to make sure
that the person who's driving the story
or the production is experienced in telling
your types of stories.
- Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about, uh,
the exciting shoots that you've done
- Through the years.
I've had the good fortune to interview
and communicate with, uh, a really a crazy cross section of
celebrities and sports figures.
I mean, our business has generally been sports
related from the beginning.
So I've had the opportunity to interview, you know,
Arnold Palmer and, uh, Joe Frazier, and I mean,
and then, and then in another world, uh, John Oliver and,
and, uh, Chris Rock and, uh, Jerry Seinfeld.
It's been a remarkable journey in that regard,
and it's just sort of the, the benefits
of working in this business for so long and,
and for such high profile
properties like Madison Square Garden.
And, um, when you say ESPN, you're doing a show
for ESPN usually opens up a lot of doors,
or HBO it, it, it gets people know, uh,
to notice you and intrigued to participate.
To me, those are some of the, certainly some
of the more exciting names that I've, I've been around.
And, um, I mean, I think I'm not unlike a lot
of people who've worked in this business for a while,
that they, once in a while, they,
these opportunities crop up.
- Who's the most fun to talk to and why?
You can name a couple, you don't have to pick one.
- One of the neater things that I got to do was a bunch
of years ago when I interviewed Red Auerbach.
- Oh. And, - Um, what was really
great about him was how down to earth he really was.
And during the course of the, in the interview,
we talked about things like the sacrifice that he made
as a longtime coach with the Boston Celtics to, uh,
what the cost was for his family.
And he got more emotional about it than I
ever would've imagined.
And at the end, he asked me when we were done,
he asked me if I could send him
the piece when it was done, which I did.
And then I got a handwritten note back on Boston Celtics
stationary thanking me for it,
which I now have framed in my house.
So it was that kind of personal, uh, touch that,
that made him so great.
And probably, I mean, he's only doing that for me, who I,
he met once, but imagine the allegiance he drew from his
players by the type of person that he was,
and the type of leader that he was
that forever indoctrinated them to great allegiance to him
and to put out their best effort for him
night in and night out.
- No, that's why the guy has a statue in
Fani Hall on a bench .
Exactly. You sit right next to him a cigar.
That's just amazing.
Uh, anybody else that sort of blew you away?
Anybody who you talk to that sort of took you off your game
because you were just so overwhelmed speaking to them?
Well, I think, I mean, red Beck's gotta be at the
top of the list, but who else?
- Yeah, I mean, um, I had a project where I was going down
to interview Arnold Palmer,
and, um, I was very fortunate to get this interview.
- Where may I ask? - What's that?
- Where did you do the interview? May I ask?
- I did it down at his golf club in Florida. Okay.
- Yeah. - So you kind of set these things up
and you think, okay, you know, this is gonna be fun.
And then the moment that he actually just,
he walks into the room
and you go, oh, damn, it's actually Arnold Palmer,
he's gonna sit down and talk to me.
Uh, is, it takes your breath away
and you gotta have to, you have to kind
of get your act together and,
and be the professional that you are,
and get him to talk to you
and give you the answers that you need.
So he was great, and his people were great,
and, um, you know, God bless him.
- Wow, it sounds amazing. But
that's what you get for great work.
Right? And
so let's just talk about post-production a little bit, uh,
and, and how you know what to keep and what to toss.
- When you're, you're sitting in the edit room
and you've looked at all your material
and you realize what your best shots are, you almost want
to take those best shots and make sure they're in the piece.
It's a priority to get the best shots in the piece.
So sometimes you put a shot in because you have to,
because the person is talking about something,
but you kind of lament, oh,
this is not the best shot that I have.
But when you have a great shot that shows an emotion,
I mean, you, you, in time you develop a, a sense of
what is a great shot.
It's one of the most important skills you learn,
and it takes a lot of work sometimes to really understand
what is a great shot.
But once you have them, once you see them
and you know you need to get them into the piece,
you get 'em in one, one way
or another, you, you'll build the piece
around a shot if you have to.
I tell young people that if, if,
if you're doing a short 32nd spot
or a 32nd story, I take the best shot I have,
I might start the piece with the best shot I have,
if it makes sense, and the second best shot I use
and leave at the end so that I leave on a strong note,
and then I'll fill in around the rest.
But when you see a shot that really makes sense,
that captures everything that you want, you, you need
to figure out a way to get it in.
And, and generally, if it's really that great
and that captivating, you'll start the piece with it.
- And one of the things I noticed that you do in,
in your work is, um, you'll have somebody who's who,
maybe they'll, right,
they'll give you just the line you want,
but then you use silence to your advantage as well,
because you let that line lie there
and resonate a little bit.
And you might cut to an, to that person physically
or emotionally, uh, or, or physically showing emotion.
Maybe they'll look down or they'll take a breath or they,
and that's really powerful.
- Well, I think all the,
certainly the documentarians understand
the power of a pause.
And, uh, I think anybody who does longer form pieces
that can afford the time,
and yes, that's a, that's a sort of, um,
a process of timing.
And you might lay out a piece and a story,
and the first time you lay it out, you're just sort
of just executing
and putting things in the right order
that you think it makes sense.
But then when you're putting the final touches on things
and you're putting in the music
and everything else, you realize the importance
of the pauses and the importance of the shots.
If there's an emotional shot, just,
just let it put it in there and let it sing.
Let it sit
and let the viewer resonate with it so that it hits home.
And sometimes if you're emotional
and you're watching it, you won't get emotional
until you see that shot.
You might have just heard the words,
but you need that second or two to think about it.
And, um, that's critically important
for the effectiveness of any piece.
- Three things I wanna talk about,
and you, you spoke to music,
and we will get to that in a bit.
Um, and I wanna talk about how you think about the ending
and the importance of, of what you include in that,
that final shot or final statement
or final crescendo with the music.
Who do you use when you
wanna have someone look at your work?
Or do you just decide that's it, I know I'm the master,
I've, I've done it and I've got it, I've got what I want?
- Well, at this point, I'm pretty trusting
of my own judgment about things.
And if I'm the one who's been the main contact
with the client and I have a confidence in my own assessment
of what they want, I put a certain value on
therefore my opinion.
But I'm always up for other opinions.
And I would play it for almo.
I would play a piece for almost anyone.
And it doesn't need to be someone in the field.
I mean, there's certainly some other, the other people
who work here who are used to production,
who might have a certain idea.
And then, uh, I'll play it a piece for my wife or,
or one of my kids who aren't
necessarily involved in the nitty gritty.
And I'll get a completely different take on what they see.
And their opinion is just as valid, of course,
because, uh,
I can understand from their viewpoint they may have a better
angle, I might be too close to something
to see what they see.
So, uh, I'm receptive to everyone's opinion.
And then of course, the most important opinion is the
client's opinion when they see
it - .
Yeah. So I wanted to ask you about that.
Best to wait till the end,
or do you show the client the piece as it's evolving?
- Well, I think it's, you have to, you get
to know your clients a little bit and,
and some, you'll learn that you can show, uh, rough cuts
or really rough cuts to certain clients,
but other clients who you don't know, I would tend to wait
until things are buttoned up a lot more.
- Yeah. - As long as you understand
that you're on the right path, uh, understand
through the process that there are gonna be things
that are gonna be hard to change.
And I may need to clue in my client about this
particular direction.
But as time
and technology has emerged,
a adaptations late changes aren't,
what aren't the problems they used to be in the old days?
Yeah. I mean, the most common thing is,
ah, I don't like the music.
And sometimes it's a problem if you've got a whole segment
segment that's been cut to the music.
But generally, if that, if that's the way I'm going
to proceed on a project, I will ask the client if this is,
if this piece of music fits where they want to go, um,
are these, are these the lyrics we want to use?
Um, are you all on board with that?
And if they are, then I feel
confident enough to move forward.
- Any particular music that you like to,
to start or finish with?
Is it rock, is it classical? Um, what do you like to use?
- It depends wildly on the, the piece.
And, um, it's a good idea to not get too
attached to one genre or another
because every client wants a different feel
and every story demands a different sound.
So, uh, I, I'm always, I always try
to be open minded about it.
Um, and generally
the music we use, uh,
and the clients that we have, have the budgets
for stock music and not necessarily copy written music.
Mm-Hmm. . So we have our stock music
libraries that we use.
Um, I'm a big fan of associated production music
because their library is huge
and their search capabilities online are
really simple to use.
But a lot of these companies, extreme music, there's a lot
of companies around that, um,
have all these now online libraries that are just great
to use and you can quickly find cuts that work for you.
- It's not expensive either, and it's worth a subscription,
but it's worth noting as well.
You can't just grab an artist's song
and use it without permission or payment.
So just a thing there, Hey, let's get to the end.
What should resonate at the end of the piece
and how do you make sure that it does
- Well at the end of your piece,
you've taken people on a short journey.
And I wanna, I want every, everyone to feel it
in their heart and in their throat.
So if we're telling an emotional story, we,
I almost want the piece to end
and there's silence in the room, and that may be applause.
Yeah. Like I, that, that is the ideal scenario.
One of the proudest projects that I work on
is the Gardner Dreams Talent Show,
which is a show at Radio City Music Hall
that happens every April and May or May.
And it's a show that features kids who have gone
through a certain hardship in life,
and Madison Square Garden
and the Garden of Dreams Foundation is affording them the
opportunity to perform on stage at Radio City.
And these kids, they go through an audition process,
so they have a certain level of talent and ability,
and some of them are a special talent
and some of them have just a special heart.
So our job, our production company, we, we do
what you see on American Idol and the Voice
and America's Got Talent.
We produce all the vignettes that tell their backstory so
that people, the viewing people
that we stream the event as well.
So the viewing audience
and the people in the audience at Radio City have an idea of
what this kit has gone through,
and they're all invested by the time they are performing.
And the energy in the room is just amazing.
And it's through tho the power of those pieces
and the guts
and heart of those performers that transforms
that audience and that, and,
and the musical into just a remarkable place of love.
So that after the vignette plays the,
the most effective vignettes there is that pause of, wow,
that kid has been through a lot,
and then the kid is introduced and on stage,
and then there's this raucous support.
- Oh my God. Yeah. And - It's, um, it is truly
- So emotional.
- It's a truly amazing event,
and we take great pride in
participating in doing our part for that.
But it's, it's those tellings of those human stories that
we enjoy telling and have proven to be
so effective in telling that story and,
and really, um, perpetuating the efforts
and the outstanding work of the Gardner Dreams Foundation,
- Man, that that is when you know it's all worth it, right?
When all the hard work and all the artistry
comes together for something like that.
Yes. Holy man. It pays
- Off from the heart in a way that I,
I couldn't imagine this career doing, uh, so many years ago.
But this is, these are the kinds of projects that
we're pursuing now that we, we want to tell human stories
that connect to products and services and nonprofits
and, uh, that has manifested itself in many ways
through the Garner Dreams Foundation or Make A Wish,
or United Negro College Fund
or, uh, Monmouth and Pace Universities, the new school.
We've done stories, uh, for all those entities and, um,
and we're proud of them.
- And I know you can see some of those, uh,
pieces on Dutch productions on your website.
- Yes. Thank you. - What do you do
with all the footage you have?
You can probably reuse it. Yes.
- Yeah. Well, on my first year of reporting on my first job
and in the business, I had to go down to a certain closet
and throw out all the two inch tapes
that were clogging the closet up.
'cause they needed room for some coats or something.
It was a coat closet. And I shudder to think about
what those reels contained.
We realized now that those were all gold mines.
And now through technology we tend,
we have the ability to save entire shoots. The
- But just in like Dropbox or online or,
- Yeah.
Well, the chore, the chore is to how do we,
how do we take advantage of the work that we've done
with those shoots and use them in the future,
or have access to it in the future?
So generally, when you get a shoot in the material is logged
and you use it in producing
and cutting a new piece from those logs,
it might be done in Avid or in Premier and,
and you have those notes.
We store everything that we shoot on a server,
and then that is backed up on digital tape so
that we always have a record of everything
that we've ever shot.
And the notes done 10 years ago on a cl medium closeup
of Patrick Ewing on the court.
If I needed to, I could find again and pull up
and use, not worrying about the rights for now,
but that, that kind of accessibility is, is a available.
And what we offer our clients is the ability
to store all their assets online, give them access
to their own personal library online,
where they can see the, all the shots
that we've ever gathered for them,
and they can use download,
hire other editors that can work with that same access
to our server and put together pieces.
That's especially valuable today when
we do say a project for Monmouth University,
and we'll cut a commercial for them,
and we have all this material on the cutting room floor
or even longer versions of shots
that we've used in the spot.
- Yeah. - Uh, the raw material
and their social media team could have access to
that entire shot and,
and take advantage of the work
that we've already done with that shoot.
- Because they own it, right?
- They own it. It's their material
so they can just reuse it.
I saw how many times people
- Leave stuff behind and - Oh, yeah.
It, it offers them so much flexibility,
cost efficiency, the cost of the shoot that they paid for
will reap benefits for years to come
because they'll have shots that they can use.
Certainly Camp Scenic shots
and what have you for the rest of the time.
I mean, we've already had the seismic change when we went
from standard def to high def video.
And that seems to be the way we're gonna go for now.
I mean, now we're shooting things in 4K and eight k
and beyond, but in the end, we're still broadcasting in 16
by 9, 19 20 by 4 86 pixels.
So all these expanded dimensions can be reformatted for that
and forever look young and forever look new.
So unless the campus changes, which occasionally it does,
those shots can live on.
And, um, and it, it can be an invaluable resource
for any company or any entity.
Uh, any time they have a shoot, they own that material,
they can reuse it.
And there's, there's different applications that come up
after the fact that we say, oh yeah, remember
that shot? Let's use that again.
- Well, it's nice to know you offer the ability to do that
because I'm, I'm, even though I'm putting stuff in Dropbox
or in the cloud, I'm not using the right
naming conventions. And
- The, the thing I'll say about Dropbox
and other, um, large folder uh,
storage devices that people can share, they're all great,
but you don't have access to the metadata.
So when a shot is logged, you're including information,
names, day, time, place, ways that you can pull up the shot
and you can access that library specifically by that shot
by name or that day or what have you.
You can then pull that one single shot that you need
rather than a Dropbox where you say, wow,
I can't remember exactly what shoot it was.
You start searching through, oh my gosh,
hours, hours and hours of footage.
That's where you're losing time and money.
So by using the assets that Quantum has afforded us
through cat DV
and storage, DNA is, is what we use,
we can access shots on the granular level of, uh, uh,
by searching for them via metadata
that will save hours.
- Yeah. That's being able to find your stuff afterwards.
Because, you know, if you're a,
if you're a visual storyteller
and you're good at this, who knows, the company may ask you
to do it again, and you may need
to use some of that same material.
Well, Steve Deru, president of Dutch Productions
six time Emmy winner, I,
I see why you've got those Emmys on your shelf
that I see in your house.
Uh, thanks for sharing your insight on visual storytelling
from, from start to finish.
Steve, I really appreciate it.
And we're probably gonna come back to you
and ask more, uh, of you in the future.
So thanks again, Steve.
- Thank you, Tom. Pleasure to be here. Thank you.