- It's once again time to get gutsy with Liz Hall
and her expert guests on the Gutsy Babe Podcast.
- Ed Lance is an entrepreneur,
entertainment technology engineer, producer,
and immersive experience designer.
Vortex Immersion Media produces immersive
and interactive experiences for Fortune 500 brands,
top artists and audiences worldwide,
and is developing a network of branded immersive venues.
Welcome Ed.
- Hi, Liz. It's great to be here.
- Well, we're very excited to have you.
Um, ed, I don't, actually no.
If you recall this, but I actually heard you speak at my
Rotary last year, uh, in
downtown LA at LA Five Rotary,
and you gave an amazing presentation
with Kate McCollum, I believe
- Kate, Kate McCallum.
Yes. Yes. We're, uh, uh, both
of us have been working in this space for some years.
Kate came out of, uh, film
and television in Paramount, universal like that.
And my background actually originally as engineering,
aerospace engineering.
- Right. So you started as an engineer
and you even worked on classified
projects for the government.
Can you share your journey from there,
creating highly acclaimed Im immersive events.
- Oh, sure. Um, well, I've always been part artist and,
and tinkerer and inventor,
and I just thought that the future of art
and entertainment would be technology based.
And so I went into engineering
and kind of, you know, during the course of things, uh,
got very much into, uh, photonic signal processing
and quantum physics and electromagnetics and plasma physics
and all sorts of cool stuff like that, which led me
to take a job as a aerospace engineer at Harris Corporation
on the Space Coast in Florida.
Mm-Hmm. where they rockets and all.
And, um, you know,
after seven years of that, I started to, you know, I got
more and more of a picture of what I was actually working on
as you get these different, uh, uh, you know,
clearances, SCI stuff.
And, um, yeah.
I just, I just decided, you know,
I really wanna bring smiles to people's faces Yeah.
Instead of, uh, removing them, so to speak. Yeah.
And, um, yeah, and,
and a job offer came up at a planetarium in Cocoa Florida,
and I kept dismissing it
because I'm like, oh, no, that's a technician thing.
And I heard that they were trying to hire a PhD engineer,
and I'm like, no way.
I a master's degree. Right.
So I, okay, well, uh, maybe I should check this out.
And it was, it was perfect for me.
It was intrapreneurial this, uh,
planetarium had written software that went out
and sold to 15 other theaters,
dome theaters around the world.
And Mm-Hmm. , they raised half a million dollars
that they've invested in laser light shows.
So, you know, um, I'd loved
that entrepreneurial spirit Mm-Hmm. .
And, uh, it was worth it to me to take a huge cut and pay
and go work for a, uh,
essentially a community college planetarium.
- That's amazing. It's spiked your, uh, passion. Right. .
- And it turned out to be a great choice
because, uh, we got reinvent the planetarium,
which were down the old one Mm-Hmm.
And built the most advanced one in the world at the time.
They called it the largest stone in Florida.
And it was a hybrid planetarium
that synchronized a digital projector, uh, star projector,
which was kind of fuzzy at the time, not very crispy,
with an optomechanical, uh,
astronomical simulator they like to call it.
Um, but a star projector essentially.
And, um, we got them to track and syn each other,
and it, it was, oh my god, a lot of math.
It was a lot of fun. DSP code, you know,
digital signal processing code
for motion control and all that.
I learned a lot. And, um, got very interested in the dome.
Yeah. Because I'm at Thisme, that fills my field of vision,
and I realized, what if we could map pixels to the dome,
like, and turn it into a giant, like a cinema experience
and fly people through the universe.
- Wow. - Yeah.
Because, you know, the star protectors just show the night
sky as they appeared to like the cavemen even, you know?
Yeah. Pretty much. Mm-Hmm. . And, um, yeah.
So, um, the digital, we started edge blending,
uh, multiple projectors.
I took a job for a plantation manufacturer now,
now known as Cosm.
Yeah. And we created, uh,
multi projector edge blended systems.
Um, I got all into the computer graphics with siggraph, uh,
community, you know, um, uh,
and, um, so, so anyway, so, uh, it took off.
Wow. Now there's 1800 digital domes in the world, and
- Oh my gosh, I didn't,
I didn't realize that there are that many.
- Yeah. Now some of 'em are small portables or whatever.
Um, Mm-Hmm. , you know, some of them are very large, um,
giant screen cinemas, if you'll, right.
So, you know, film kind of faded away,
and now we're projecting digitally onto the domes,
and that's created an overlap between the IMAX domes,
giant screen cinemas like that.
Mm-Hmm. and the Planet community.
So now you have this larger distribution platform
that you can access these theaters.
- Right. So like the one in Vegas, right.
That's the big massive one that everyone knows about.
- Oh, yeah. Yeah.
They put, they put the full format on the map, you know,
literally Mm-Hmm.
and figuratively.
And, um, that theater, they did quite a good job on it,
you know, but that basic theater design, honestly,
Uhhuh is pretty much the same
as the original Omnimax Theater
that opened in Balboa Park at the Ruben h Fleet Science
Center in 1973.
- Wow. - Right.
So that was like 30 degree tilted dome, uh, pretty steep.
And it brings the dome down
to your knees when you're sitting, unlike a lot
of plantars where you have to look up.
Right. So, and,
and that turns out to be a great storytelling format
where audience is all facing in the same direction.
Uh, and you can take people on
journeys, incredible journeys.
- Yeah. So can you share even more about the domes
and the immersive experience offered to the public
besides the one that's in, you know, Vegas
where most people can't get to, or sometimes
- Sure.
Well, you know, the Vegas dome is showing the potential
of both live performance and cinema.
They, they have both shows, right.
And then two, and Phish, and now, uh, dead
and Company the next one coming up.
But, uh, we've been actually in, in, um,
these smaller domes, uh, which are, you know, more intimate.
Uh, we've been doing similar things for many years.
This is nothing new.
And, uh, you know, uh, what, what I realized,
however, in the planetarium community, many planetariums are
very, uh, they're nonprofit.
They don't even have a profit motive.
Uh, they don't have any sort of in their charter
or in their, um, you know, uh,
mission statement or whatever.
Uh Mm-Hmm. entertainment programming, culturally relevant,
you know, uh, uh, arts or entertainment,
or have nothing to do with their mission statement.
Right? Mm-Hmm. , informal science education institutions
offering astronomy or earth science, uh, you know, Mm-Hmm.
documentaries and films.
And, um, so that's actually why I left the planetarium
space, uh, and started my own company in 2007.
I started Vortex Immersion Media and Oh, cool.
You know, and the point, the,
the I idea there originally was to build our own brick
and mortar, which I'd been doing all over the world,
you know, when I was working at Cosm, I,
I was designing like the Library of Alexandria in Egypt.
Right. Uh, blote Nina,
and the world's largest children's museum in Mexico City,
and three in the uk
and all over, you know, we're putting up these domes Yeah.
And I'm like, this is powerful format.
Why are we just restricting it to astronomy
and space science and like that
- Science? Right.
- Okay. So maybe I just need to do my own thing,
because you, you couldn't get them to go down that path.
And actually what we've ended up doing is, you know,
renting the theaters
and running our shows, we sell the tickets,
do the marketing and, and everything.
We have distribution platform called Worlds Entertainment
shows that we've been doing are quite successful.
- That's amazing. Also, fascinating
that you're saying that it's been around for
so many years now, and now it, I mean,
what you said since the early sixties or seventies?
- Yes. Well, actually, we're celebrating this year,
the hundredth anniversary of the
Planetarium, which was first.
Wow. The first Planetarium projector was designed
and built in 1923,
and then it, in 1924 in Germany,
it was Carl Zeiss company created it.
And, uh, so now it's being celebrated.
Uh, and, you know, and, um, interestingly, uh,
last year was the 50th anniversary of Omnimax,
which was 1973.
Okay. Um, and, um,
and I suppose, um, uh, the 40th anniversary
of the Digistar, which was the first digital planetarium
projector, but it was just a single, uh, CRT, you know,
projected monochrome dot lines on the dome,
but it was still very powerful.
You have a wire frame asteroid coming at you
and like, getting huge on the dome, like a wow.
And the kids scream and jump outta their seats, , you know,
and that's how I realized, oh my God,
this medium is powerful, psychologically powerful.
- Right. - We do with it, you know,
we're triggering brain states that are very difficult
to trigger with film or television.
- Oh, it's, it's so true.
I, I recall your presentation, um, and you had the visuals
and, uh, my rotary,
just the imagery was, is fascinating.
Right. It reminds me of like Star Wars, right.
When you have the, the lights coming at you,
but it's like surrounded all around it.
It's, it really, like, it opens your mind and, and,
and it's like a whole full ex life experience kind of thing.
- Indeed. Well, it is an experiential medium,
and, you know, just to illustrate if you're
watching a film Mm-Hmm. ,
it's, it's a basically a rectangular frame on a wall.
Mm-Hmm. , the film, the frame is very important
to cinematic language.
Yeah. So, for instance, if you have a, um, let's,
let's say you have a scene
and a fellow's walking down the street suit
and tie clutching a briefcase,
and you do a tight shot of his micro expressions, you know,
and his shifty eyes and, and,
and sweat on his brow, you know,
and you know, these micro expressions.
And then you do a tight shot of his
hand gripping the briefcase with white knuckles.
And, and then, uh, you know, more, a more establishing shot
of him walking nervously and looking back and forth.
Well, in the dome, it's like, what do you do?
You, you want a tight shot of his face?
Well, it's, there's no frame, right?
So his head gets really big, like 40 feet tall,
and people, uh, you know, it's shocking and scary .
But, uh, but here's the other thing.
When you're watching a film in the frame,
somebody pulls out a gun and threatens, you know,
your favorite character, oh,
and oh, oh, I hope he doesn't shoot her.
I love her. Right.
If you're in a room and someone walks in with a,
pulls out a gun and starts yelling Yeah.
Your nervous system will have a very different reaction than
if you're watching it on a film.
And I think the frameless nature of the medium
tricks the brain almost.
It's we're trying to simulate reality. Mm-Hmm. .
And it tricks the brain into thinking
that you're actually there
and your brain starts responding like you're actually there.
And that's a big difference, both vr uh,
to a lesser extent in the sense
that you don't have a peripheral vision as much
with the, the headsets.
- Right. - But the dome, it really goes right out
to your peripheral vision and behind your head even.
Wow. Yeah.
So that's, um, there's something about it and,
and, you know, you can access brain states that you can't
with film or television, like a sense of awe.
- Yeah. Well, yeah.
Because that's where the whole immersive
experience comes in.
Right? You're feeling everything, not just in your mind,
but in, in your body. .
- Mm-Hmm. It does.
And it actually does mess
with your nervous system in that way.
Yeah. Since there's something I like to call the opto
opto vestibular response, it's your sense of balance
is partly, um, maintained by your visual field
and especially your peripheral vision.
Mm-Hmm. . So if your world starts to move
or shift you, you know, that you know your right.
Um, so,
and then of course, your inner ear correlates with that.
Uh, but in the dome, uh,
the inner ear is telling you you're sitting still,
but your eyes are like, oh my God,
I'm on a rollercoaster. You know,
whoa, - .
- And, uh, and you can give people vertigo.
You can even make people sick if you're not careful.
So we have to Oh, for
- Sure.
- Tell artists coming into the medium.
It's like, well, imagine that your, your art is,
you're painting on a canvas,
but in this case, the canvas is the nervous
systems of your audience.
Mm-Hmm. of your participants as we like to call them,
because they are like an active participant in the show,
providing meaning and Right.
You know, and a lot of what we do,
we use abstract art imagery,
and it's almost like a Rorschach people project their own
meaning onto the show.
And music and voiceover sort of get so context.
And it's, it's amazing how people respond to the shows
that we've been producing.
- Yeah, for sure. For It's like, you're going for a ride.
- Absolutely. We call it a journey, you know?
And in fact, we have a film called The Journey,
and the whole idea is to provide continuous fascination,
visual musical fascination.
But thing that happens is it's like contemplative space
is provided, and the monkey mind
that's always chattering, right?
Yeah. It's almost like it's fascinated by the visuals,
and it stops, it's like captivated.
And you can actually accelerate people into like mindfulness
states, uh, very quickly, who would
otherwise have trouble sitting
and, you know, meditating on their breath for seven years
or whatever, , you know, to, to achieve these brain states.
Like we can, you know, supercharge, uh,
or evoke, um, brain states that are very similar.
And I'd love to do some cognitive research. Um,
- Well, it's amazing.
- Yeah. Neuropsychologist wants to work us with us on that.
- Can you share a story about one
of your most rewarding events
and lessons you've learned from it?
- Oh, good grief. There's so many.
Well, one cool event was with Childish Gambino. Mm-Hmm.
, and he's otherwise known as Glover. Mm-Hmm.
Uh, but he sings and performs
and, um, uh, live Nation was working with him, and,
and they, he wanted to do something completely unique.
And so we ended up popping up 160 foot diameter dome
in the desert in Joshua Tree.
- Wow. - And, and he brought in a whole team
of artists and animators.
We sat in our, uh,
vortex Dome in downtown LA on a studio lot Mm-Hmm. ,
uh, where we were based for 10 years until the pandemic hit
after a year pandemic, it was like, you know, um, uh,
or paying rent, can't even use our own dome.
But, um, this, uh, we packed 2,500 people per show
and did five shows over three days.
- Wow. And - It, it, it was really impressive.
I mean, um, the, the, uh, entire performance was
rendered real time unity.
Mm-Hmm. . So it's a game engine creating these worlds and,
and moving through these worlds.
And there's characters like kina type
characters in the worlds.
And, and, uh, yeah. It was just very impressive.
And it showed the power of the format.
And when people came in, they actually took
everyone's cell phone and put it in a little
magnetic shielded bag. Right. Where
- Oh, so they couldn't record it.
- Yeah. You couldn't use your phone at all.
- It makes you more present.
- It does. And, and, you know, of course everybody wants
to capture and, and, and, you know, Instagram
and everything, but when you're there
and you just are like, oh my God, this experience, you know,
and, and everybody's not pulling up their cell phone.
It, it did really help, I think, you know, people
to get absorbed in in the experience.
- Experience. For sure. I could see that. That's amazing.
So, what visions of the future for Dom events in the US
and around the world, do you see?
- Well, I, I do have a very strong vision
that motivates me.
And it, it's a little hard to articulate sometime.
You know, you, you just know something,
but you're not sure how, you know,
and then it's like, well, how do you even
explain it to somebody else?
Right. But the,
the vision actually came to me as a teenager.
Wow. I saw in my mind's eye, in fact,
I wrote a little short story, a sci-fi short story
about a performer in the future
who came up in a dome in this, like an elevator
console in the center of the dome,
and was surrounded on this console by these crystals
that picked up their thoughts, the performer thoughts,
and projected them on the dome and immersed the audience
and the performer's mind.
Wow. So the performer had to have perfected consciousness,
and they had to be able to hold the vision
and people through that vision.
And, uh, that, that just really inspired me.
And, and again, you know, I went into engineering
because I'm like, what I'm seeing in my
mind doesn't exist yet.
I have to create it, and then I can be that performer.
Right. Yeah. Well, we're getting closer and closer.
And so one of the things we're working is ai Okay.
And have an AI supercomputer and,
and A-G-P-U-A graphics processing supercomputer
driving the dome so
that we can offer experiences you'd never get at home in a
headset, because it's all being rendered real time,
maybe even pulling Instagram pages from the audience
who have opted to share, you know, opted in.
Yeah. And,
and the AI can riff on this imagery as part
of the dome experience, you know,
so every show's unique and different.
Mm-Hmm. . And the performer could be, for instance, we like
to call this an immersive jockey ,
because you have a dj, you know,
disc jockey, you have a Yeah.
A video jockey.
And often we use both of them while in, in,
in these performances along with dancers or whatever.
Um, so cool. Right? Yeah.
But then, you know, there's also this mul, uh,
multisensory possibility.
Mm-Hmm. . So you can also have a touch jockey delivering
VibrAcoustic stimulation to your body and,
and even aroma or whatever.
But what's cool about the AI is
that one performer even could stand there
and using gestures, command the dome command,
all the multisensory experiences for people.
And that's where you're now getting really close
to going from the mind of the performer
into the mind of the audience.
Oh my God, that's amazing. It's cool stuff.
And, and so, you know, uh, regarding the future,
I think of the domes.
You know, I mean, the planetariums are like
cosmological cinema.
Mm-Hmm. , you're flying into the universe. It's stories.
It may be real time. You fly through the universe, uh,
a known model, model of the known universe
and the computer you fly through with the joystick.
Right. fly out to thees and turn left.
You know, Carter Imar, the, uh, director
of astro visualization
for the Hayden Planetarium in New York,
the Rose Center for Earth and Space.
He, um, he does, he flies real time.
He knows, you know, the universe so well.
He can fly you around and point out different things,
but that's cosmological cinema.
Okay. Now, some stuff we're doing with the art, I think
of it as phenomenal cinema.
Mm-Hmm. and phenomenology is where you look within. Okay.
So it's almost as if we're, you know,
taking you into the mind of the artist
or we're evoking in your mind, you know?
And it's, and people project their meaning outwards.
Mm-Hmm. . So, so what, what is that?
You know, what kind of, it's not a planetarium per se.
It's something more, and,
and I think of the domes as almost like digital temples
of transformation.
- Wow. - People come in, they have these heart opening,
mind opening experiences.
They, they feel a sense of awe
and awe is scientifically shown to reduce people's fear
of the future, reduce people's need to be right.
Mm-Hmm. about things, uh, pro-social behavior stimulates,
and gosh, I think the world needs that now. You know,
- I, I couldn't agree with you more the word that comes
to me as spirituality.
- Indeed. And, and you know, what I think is happening,
and, you know, I'm trained as a scientist.
Mm-Hmm. , but I also think of myself as somewhat
of a mystic Mm-Hmm.
mystic being defined as someone who, uh,
takes seriously the phenomena
of the mind when you look within.
- Right. - And visions,
and like my childhood vision, you know?
Yeah. It's real. Of course.
It's real psyche stuff, right? Mm-Hmm. .
- Yeah. - When you start looking at spiritual practices,
um, what you see are really,
I call 'em spiritual technologies.
- I love that. - Right.
So for instance, um, a power object, you know, like, um,
a Native American, um, elder would maybe have a,
it could be a pipe carrier or a rattle, you know?
Mm-Hmm. . And what,
what's happening there psychologically in a scientific
sense, you're imbuing that object with meaning.
Mm-Hmm. . And when you wield the object, you evoke
that meaning or principle, or, or, or,
or layer of your psyche, if you will.
Right? Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. .
So it's a way of accessing deep states of your inner being,
you know, using ritual or ceremony or celebrations
or whatever the case may be, right?
Mm-Hmm. . So when you start thinking like this,
you see spirituality in a whole new light,
superstitious, you know, deities.
It's like, oh, quain.
Well, quain is,
is like a certain feminine principle Mm-Hmm.
That you can actually evoke
and bring forth in yourself
by meditating on this archetypal, you know,
quote deity, right?
Mm-Hmm. . So it's not superstitious at all.
It's actually a spiritual technology.
- That's beautiful. That is amazing.
So how can people learn more about what you're doing
and any upcoming events scheduled?
The last I recall you had something going on in San Diego.
- Absolutely. Well, you know, we do have, um, uh, two shows,
um, actively playing in, gosh, I think they're in about 40,
uh, planetariums, um, uh, across, uh,
north America currently.
Uh, there's, uh, the first show we did is called Meer,
ME sm E-R-I-C-A.
And you can just google that, um,
or go to tickets meer com.
Uh, the other show is called Bea,
and these are both, um, uh, featuring the artist,
James Hood and James.
Um, there's a very special, uh, artists, uh, we, we, um,
when we first connected with him, we were like,
oh my God, you get it.
You get how to use this format. Mm-Hmm. .
And, uh, so he's doing what we call a visual musical journey
with poetic narrative.
And this is the abstract journey.
There's like beauty and, and awe inspiring, you know,
but then he has this positive voiceover track
where he is like, talking about happiness and whatnot,
and people come out going, oh my God, I feel so
happy, - .
- It works. It actually works.
At least on 75% of the people. It works. You
know, - , that's a pretty good percentage. .
- Yeah. Pretty good. Pretty good for, so, um, yeah.
So both of those shows are playing, uh,
my company is Vortex immersion.
Mm-hmm. Com or vortex dos com is a short version.
And, um, you know, we also have a, a dome film festival,
which is, uh, we just held Boulder, Colorado.
We're coming back to Boulder next
year, the first week of May.
It's called Dome Fest West.
- Wow. - Yeah.
So, uh, if you're really interested in the format
and wanna explore more, dome Fest is a great way to do that.
Um, and you can see the films on the site now
that won the awards from this year.
And, um, yeah.
People are, the creativity coming into the
format is really amazing.
Mm-Hmm. . It's, it's heartwarming, you know, lots
of experimentation, art, science, you know, education,
um, you know, uh, live performances that we give awards for
as well live performers at the Dome Festival.
So it's really cool.
- That is cool. I love how you're bringing the science
and the art and meshing it together so beautifully.
- Yeah. You get it. That's, that's what it's really, uh,
a lot of this is we call S Art, you know?
- Okay. There's actual name for it, ,
- If you, you know, if you hand scientific data sets
- Uhhuh - To artists, they'll riff on it in ways
that really help people, I think, assimilate, you know, some
of the scientific concepts by making it interesting
and compelling and like, wow.
Right. Mm-Hmm. , uh,
but then you, then you realize, oh my God,
this was actually, this is real data, you know?
So in some cases, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, cool. Yeah.
And I'd love to see the planetarium sort
of redefine themselves, you know, is,
is this just space and stars?
Well, it's the cosmos.
It's the, it's the entire universe, the universe without,
and the universe within, let's explore it all.
- Yes. I couldn't agree more.
And maybe they will,
because it domes are becoming more popular people now.
It's the one in Vegas has put it on the map for people
that have never even heard about the dome world.
Right. Um, that maybe now they're like,
oh, ed was onto something ,
- It's in the field, you know, it's in the field.
And vortex in my company would, uh, very much, uh,
like, uh, partners to support the development
of a network of arts and entertainment films.
That's great. That's the Future is a network of these venues
that can, um, you know, so when an artist, uh, you know,
producer creates a show,
they can get it out onto the network and monetize it
and make enough money to make the next show, you know, and,
and pay the rent, whatever.
So that, that's the future.
And right now it's a little bit painful
because, you know, there's not a lot of venues that,
you know, if you create a, a film
or whatever, that's, uh, you know,
not science-based Mm-Hmm. ,
you know, there's not a lot of opportunities out there quite
yet, but that's gonna change real fast
- Yeah. With the technology.
- Yeah. Yeah. So we need more either, uh,
open-minded planetariums or more arts tainment.
And, and, and my personal hope is that hope, you know,
we don't bring in the kind of, you know, drama
that we've been doing in film and television, you know, guns
and car chases and,
and all that sort of thing
that we can really raise the bar now
that we can evoke these other emotions
and feelings, you know, like bliss, awe, mindfulness, all of
that, that are very pleasurable states of consciousness
and ought to sell tickets as much
as shootouts or car chases. Do you know?
- Yes, they should. 100%.
I think the world needs that more instead of all
of the car chases in the gun shooting action.
- And in some ways, I think we're triggering latent brain
states that people, that if we could maintain
a, a state of a Yeah.
And it's almost like gratitude. Yes.
We walk around with an open heart and an open mind.
I don't see how things could go bad in the world, you know?
I think, you know, it's, uh, when we get too greedy
or you fall
bi base impulses Mm-Hmm. ,
you know, yeah. Things can go awry,
but there's, there's a certain, almost like a transcendent,
uh, state of consciousness that you can, uh,
actually start to maintain.
Mm-Hmm. . And, uh, in my mind, if you look at technology,
the Moore's law curve for tech, technological power
that we're putting, democratizing,
and putting into everyone's fingertips, like ai Yeah.
And anybody with a smartphone can be a, an influencer
of millions of people, and 80% of the population
of the planet has a smartphone now.
So it's like, okay, power out to, okay, go play children.
Here's some matches, go play, you know, not matches,
blow towards, you know, like, this is powerful stuff,
and it's getting more and more powerful.
And so, to me, the only solution I've come up with is like,
we need a more long curve for wisdom.
We need to accelerate, you know, wisdom on the planet and,
and being able to sit with ambiguity, not having
to be right all the time.
Mm-Hmm. , you know, being able
to maintain an open heart more often and stay in a loving
and state of empathy or compassion and,
and, um, you know, it's not a, uh, a woo thing
or ladi da thing.
It, it's like, I mean, it takes courage, uh,
and it takes discipline to be able to, you know, rise
above the noise Mm-Hmm.
And take a higher road.
And I think that's, that's what the future
of humanity depends on our ability to
evolve into these, um, higher brain states,
if you'll, whatever you wanna call it. Mm-Hmm.
- That's beautifully said, ed.
It's like you said, gratitude change everything.
- Absolutely. And you know, when you read a book
and it makes sense Mm-Hmm.
But it still just talk
- You - Experience that evokes that state in you Mm-Hmm.
It, it's, it's opens the door.
- Well, I love what you're putting out in the world, so
I look forward to attending one of your
dome experiences, um, very soon.
I'm gonna look that up. It,
so it's at the Vortex Immersion Media.
- Yes. Vortex domes.com.
And, um, feel to free to reach out to me, uh, personally,
ed at vortex com if you really wanna connect.
I'm pretty open.
I don't always have time, uh, to, you know, cater to,
uh, everyone's needs.
But, um, happy to point people in the right direction.
- It's been such a pleasure, ed.
Thank you very much for sharing this experience with, um,
with me and, uh, our listeners.
Thanks for tuning in, gutsy Babes.
Until next time, move with Lebanese.
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