Welcome back to the Present Fathers podcast.
This is part two of my personal story.
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both personally and in my marriage and a lot of the lessons learned
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And welcome
back to part two of the Present Fathers podcast,
where we're interviewing George Heyworth, one of our great legendary leaders.
George bared his soul in part one, and he discussed
his childhood and his traumas.
He finished the discussion about the turmoil
in his marriage between him and his wife.
So let's let's spend 15 minutes
discussing how you healed and you reconciled your marriage.
This clearly there was some serious work to do, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do it.
Let's dive into that a little bit.
Yeah. So, you know, obviously
there's a lot of
work to do when it comes to repairing marriages, post,
you know, affairs or extramarital extramarital affairs.
You know, there's
there's you have to build a ton of trust really, is what it is, because
there's really no other way to break trust more significantly than that.
So you there has to be a lot of humility
and a lot of patience.
Counseling obviously helped a lot.
But as we started that
journey of healing, that aspect of our lives,
we kind of simultaneously we had some awareness based off
some of the previous work we'd done, like going to on site and things like that
about our pasts.
And so after this all happened and we were kind of in this phase,
you know, my my counselor said, read this book,
Silently Seduced.
And so then she started work with me to really, like, unpack
what all that was and why that's manifesting the way it was.
So it was kind of like in tandem, right?
Like we were repairing the marriage
in our relationship and trust between each other.
But we also had to simultaneously work on ourselves because
the ways in which our childhood wounds showed up in marriage
just created an extremely contentious situation where
both of us are just reacting to the other out of like survival instinct.
And so it's just all you're doing is hurting each other
because you're constantly like on edge, you know?
So really, for me, after going through Sally Seduced
and just having the awareness of like, Wow, this all happened to me.
And this is
in like getting even know it right
hit me like a freaking wall, you know, It's like I ran headfirst into a wall
and it really, like, kind of messed me up for, like, six months.
It's it's a very heavy stuff to to kind of realize about your life.
And so what I learned through that process
is that what had happened to me is what's called
emotional incest, the clinical term for it.
And so emotional incest, it sounds icky
because it is
it's when a parent
normally it's opposite gender, but when a parent treats a child in a way
to essentially have the child meet their own needs,
usually regarding some form of intimate details
about things that really should never be shared between a parent and a child.
And so for me, between my mother
and her sharing details about the divorce and things like that, it creates really
unhealthy like worldview of
like what love is, what relationships should be, all that kind of stuff.
So like, my, my understanding was just skewed, you know, straight up.
And so and again, I don't see any of this to be like, oh, I'm a victim.
Like, you know, I'm this wounded person.
And so that's like, like I could have dug in to this myself, right?
Like I to be like, hey, you know, my childhood is kind of messed up.
I wonder why that is.
And I could have
made a change sooner in my life instead of doing all the things I did.
And none of this excuses what I did.
So I want to make that eminently clear before we continue.
But going through all this and just having the awareness of like, Oh, wow,
yeah, that's not cool.
That's not good that that happened to me, you know,
was kind of the it's where I could
start turning from because now I, like, knew what was plaguing me.
You know, it's like, okay, this is what it was.
And so it was actually kind of at the same time
that I was able to restore my relationship with my dad.
And that's actually like step one the book recommends is to restore
a relationship with the opposite gender parent.
So that kind of worked out very well.
I would I would assume there were some some of God's, you know, guidance in that
to happen for me.
But from that point forward, there was still a lot of work to do in a marriage. But
I now had it's like the veil was taken off, right.
And I could kind of see more clearly the direction I needed to head.
I just want to make a few more points about emotional incest going to hear.
Most people never heard that before and just really kind of define
that for everyone, at least from what I understand.
And then that way, you know,
people can learn from this and hopefully not perpetuate that. But
any situation where you're kind of saying things like,
oh, because you're more mature
than the other kids, I'm going to say this to you, or, you know, well, your father
won't do this with me or any anything around those lines where you're kind of
it'll be our little secret, that kind of stuff.
That's emotional incest because the child doesn't understand boundaries, right?
They're your parents.
And so when you start conflating
that interaction with your child,
you're setting them up to fail in future relationships.
And they also won't be able to hold their own boundaries
because you kind of took them from them.
So that that's usually the typical outcomes. So
to to state how serious this really is.
I've also read another book called Healing the Wounded Heart,
also by a psychiatrist psychologist.
I don't want to misquote their title, but a doctor
who spent their life, you know, in this field.
And he actually doesn't even separate the difference between
what happens to the brain in terms of like traumatic response
between actual rape and emotional incest.
So from a clinical point of view, it's a pretty damaging thing to occur.
So that had happened to me
through the whole divorce stuff and kind of
being being kind of made aware of information
I probably never should have known.
And so, again, like perspective is a healthy thing
for all the things they could have had to deal with.
It's really not like that.
Terrible, right?
Like I saw three square meals a day.
Like, there's a lot of goodness in my life still.
And yeah, I got to quote David Waldie right.
Like he talked about all his hardships and how he can look back on them
with gratefulness.
And that really resonated with me because I am grateful
for my childhood and for all, because now I know so much more
because I had to work through this.
I've learned so much about many different aspects
about like emotional intelligence and things that I can help
a lot of other people now through my experience,
and I certainly will not perpetuate that trend with my own children. So
as painful as it was,
I am grateful for the experience because I've had to learn a lot
through the process, and I think it's not just made me a better man,
but I believe I can kind of pay it forward throughout the rest of my life.
So yeah.
That makes sense.
So, George, let's define terms and make sure I understand
kind of the difference between co-dependence and emotional incest.
Let's say, for example,
you have a teenage child and you just had a fight with your wife.
You have to explain to that child
that you were angry with each other and that you had a fight.
So how do you do that in a healthy way that doesn't share too much information,
but that you're also not trying to hide information from your kids?
That's that's a tough line, right?
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. In that scenario.
I mean, you just keep it to the basic right.
And generally you both should do it together, right?
Reconcile and then and then say, both of you apologize together to your child,
especially if they're teenage, you know, they're not an idiot.
They knew you were fighting.
But both you go to your child and say,
you know, hey, little Timmy or whatever the name is,
you know, Mommy, daddy, you're
very sorry that we fought in that way in front of you.
We know we made you scared.
We've made amends to each other. And,
you know, we hope that you can also forgive us for
if you just keep it to basics and answer questions as best you can.
But if they ask something that's like
shouldn't really have an answer to say, you know, that's
that's not really appropriate for us to tell you that it's okay.
Like, this is just demonstrating healthy boundaries to your children.
And if they don't learn it from you, they are going to learn it in
unhealthy ways later from the world.
And like you should demonstrate what boundaries look like in a relationship.
And there are lines you just shouldn't cross with your kids.
That would be one of them right there. Dustin In that example.
So to, to, to play like the other end of it, where it would
be bordering on emotional incest would be like, let's say it's a son, teenage son.
And the mother only like, pulls the son aside like,
you know, we are fighting about it and then sharing all the details
about what you were fighting about, talking about how, you know, his dad
isn't the one, you know, not not loving her, appropriately enough.
And she just needs him to understand that she's really hurt right now.
And she could use a hug. Stuff like that.
You see the difference in connotation and just how creepy it starts to get.
And so the thing she's like, most, most.
This can go both ways.
It can be dads, two daughters and mothers, two sons.
It's not just one way, but
I don't think people
do it because they're actually trying to abuse their kids.
I think they're in a lot of pain themselves and they didn't know the tools
to how to actually properly put that in its place.
And so, you know, the child who just happens to be there
to fill that need, and I think that's how it happens.
And so it's kind of like collateral damage from not dealing with your own stuff
earlier in your life.
That that's just my thoughts on the matter.
Please don't quote me as like a clinical definition of how that happens, but.
It's sheer suffering. I mean, that's. Yeah.
When you're suffering at a certain degree and you emotionally
don't regulate yourself and you don't take care of those emotions,
you don't hit them head on, you're going to share with other people
because that's that's the other way of releasing the valve.
Right. So it's unfortunate. Yeah.
Do you think that ever changes with age or is it ever appropriate to start
having those conversations with your adult children,
or does that boundary kind of stay forever?
My my $0.02 is I would air on the side of just not even toeing the line
on that boundary too. Like,
you know, when
my daughter grows up and she gets married and that kind of stuff.
I just think there's certain conversations
that aren't meant for me to have with my daughter.
You know, it's maybe I think it's a little bit different.
Maybe like, hey, mom, you know, like, okay, let's just be honest.
Like, maybe she has questions
about sexual relations with her future husband or whatever, right?
Probably better for mom to take that one
just straight up because
there is the possibility that it just
it crosses lines, you know, because I'm her dad and.
Yeah, I don't know.
That's that's a question for the people who wrote those books that referenced,
quite frankly.
So I think you're muted there.
Doesn't.
Oh, yeah. No, that that makes a lot of sense.
Definitely.
I think regardless of age, you know, there's just certain lines
that it's just not it's not healthy.
Yeah. Yeah.
I'm generally keeping things more high low.
It's a very problematic topic,
keeping it to like the basics is always, I think the better
approach.
I think maybe it's a little a little less severe
or like it's probably less of a concern once they're grown and out of the house.
But while you're living in the same home and they're still in their formative
years, I mean, they haven't really had the chance yet to like, form
their own boundaries and understanding of how interactions and relationships
should really work.
So yeah, if you kind of co-opt that,
you kind of get them stuck where they are in that moment, even as they age.
Right?
And a lot of people have a tendency when they're there trying to explain something,
especially when it deals with suffering and trauma.
They just shoot from the hip.
Mm hmm.
You know, if you're going to explain something that's tough to your children
and teach them a lesson, in my experience, in all the books I've read on it,
you're supposed to use analogies and place it on
somebody else instead of yourself directly, because then,
you know, it's a shared experience, but with boundaries.
Right. Yeah.
So, yeah, I think just a lot of the don't realize that they just
verbal vomit, whatever they want and yeah fortunately it affects me.
Yeah, that's a really good point.
So like in the, in the example we use Dustin, the fight happens
and then trying to make amends like create the space.
Let's some let some steam cool in the very moment.
Like, Hey, we're really sorry Tim.
We'll talk about this in a little bit.
Let's all cool off, you know, something like that.
Go calm down.
Think about what you want to say and then address it with like, intention
as opposed to, like Brandon said, just spewing.
I don't see how you go wrong doing that.
And again, perfection that none of us is perfect.
We all make mistakes.
Just doing your best in that regard, I think avoids,
you know, getting towards emotional incest.
So no. Pressure.
If you don't get it right, Tammy might turn into Melvin.
Maybe.
Maybe. Yeah.
So I think that's
all I really want to like maybe talk about on that specific subject.
But yeah, that is, that is kind of my that was like my,
the thing that was plaguing me that I had no clue was there.
And then and again, not to excuse any of my behaviors,
but I started to understand and why I started seeking
certain things to fill the hole, you know,
that was within me.
And again, to throughout this entire time,
my relationship with God was not where it should have been.
And if I would have been pursuing him
aggressively and
like I should,
I don't think any of the things that I've been sharing
would have occurred, you know?
So there's that, too.
Don't don't forget the spiritual element of all of this as well. But
the interesting thing for me was after going through this,
like on a personal level
and throughout this time,
as we're working on a marriage and trying to restore things,
I went to a place called Mighty Oaks.
It's founded by Chad Robichaux.
Just Google him looking up incredible men.
And the program there is it's for veterans and first responders
and everyone who runs the program.
They've gone through it themselves and they're all a veteran or first responder.
Also, most of them are like former spec ops guys too.
So like when you have a Navy SEAL or Green Beret telling you like, that's a B.S.
excuse, bro, you're not treating your wife correctly, you're like, hmm,
okay.
All right.
Yeah, maybe I should humble myself a little bit. So
they do a lot more than just, like, tell you you're wrong.
It was incredible experience
that also kind of, like, helped accelerate the healing process for me
because it was a good like, I knew a lot of the things they taught.
I learned some new things to,
but it was also seeing the shared experience
of all these other guys who had been through similar or a lot
worse things to me in many cases, a whole lot worse.
But just seeing everyone
kind of like let their guard down and be real with each other about it
really helped me a lot too, to kind of move forward
from from the past.
And Whitney also went to the women's program
afterwards, too.
So I think, you know, we've for all or for all the things we've gone through,
we've also had a lot of amazing people step in through both of our journeys
and really, really be a lifeline for us in certain organizations on site.
And Mighty Oaks were pivotal for us to to survive really.
And as I learn more about myself and my problems,
I also learn to have awareness of like, Oh, my wife has similar problems too.
Like she had things happen to her childhood
and I gained empathy and compassion for those.
And so the more and more that, like I grew my compassion muscle,
the better I got at maintaining frame
and staying calm in moments that used to be very heated.
And so, you know, the last several years, there's
obviously been difficulty in them.
But the intensity to which we had
fights or any of that kind of thing just gradually kept lowering
that it got less severe, like if we had a bad fight.
It used to be like a month long thing, right?
Like, Oh, we're going to have the cold shoulder game
and that kind of stuff nowadays, like if we have a bad fight, it's like
maybe the same day we're we're already over it,
you know, like we've just gotten better about giving grace and forgiveness
through through all of our learning and healing.
And I close with like where we are today, like right now in the moment,
you know, we we've not stopped doing any of this work.
We kept going to counseling.
We keep diving into these things that we've gone through.
And for me, the real transformational thing
is, was the knowledge of all this work
right over the past, you know, say, six years.
But in the last year specifically, I really took
ownership of I'm not following Christ like I should.
I'm you know, I believe in I'm a Christian,
but I'm kind of just talking the talk.
And so, you know, I went through John Michaels program, the family captain,
that was extremely helpful for me to renew my mind on
what God says I should do and how I should treat my wife.
So coupling the knowledge I've learned through counseling and therapy
with what the Bible says and putting it together and then
pursuing him with everything that I am,
that's made the difference.
And just in the past month,
we have had
significant restoration in our marriage and just all of our interaction.
Like I see her now, I think as close to
how like God intends the husband to see their wife, like through his eyes.
Because every day I wake up
and I do my morning routine, I read my creed, which is, you know what?
What God says about me, what I what the type of man I want to be,
how I'm going to interact with my family.
I journal, I read the Bible, I pray for my wife,
I pray for my daughter, I pray for me for God to get me through the day.
Well, and so I spent, you know, 30 minutes every morning doing these things.
And I found that I'm able then to make space for like
maybe my wife is frustrated or she's tired or something.
But instead of me reacting, if she has an off moment
and starting a fight,
I'm able to just recognize it for what it is and give grace and compassion.
And so
you heard all of this pain in part one, right?
But I'm here to tell you, like there's still work to be done, right?
There's always growth. But man, I feel like
God has given us a humongous gift where
we so we just had our ten year anniversary
and this has happened like right after
all this restoration.
And so I kind of feel like this next ten years,
like we're going into a new season, we've turned a corner.
And I just have absolute confidence now
that something, something will happen, life will happen.
Maybe we have something happen to us or we get mad at each other or whatever.
But like I have 100% confidence now that it's not going to be problematic, right?
It'll just be a bump in the road
and we'll cling to each other and to God and move past it.
And so for really the first time in my life in marriage, I can say that
with absolute confidence and not feel like I'm putting on an act. So
I guess the only thing I'll say is that
when you like, like Nick Fraser said, when you love Christ first
and with everything that you are, then you'll be able to love your wife properly.
Yeah.
And there's something to be said towards that golden rule that the Bible
clearly states, which is, you know, you're when you're pursuing Christ,
you're perfecting the way that you love yourself and others.
And the more you allow him to sanctify you
to perfect the way you love others, the stronger your relationships
with others is going to be, especially ones that are sisters
and brothers in Christ and people who pursue Christ as well.
So it's so vital that you do that.
And I love that you both have done that
because, you know, I always tell people that
the grass is greener where you water it.
You know,
your heart is going to you're going to have a hardship
whether you divorce or you have a hardship,
whether you fight for your marriage.
And man, I'd rather fight for my marriage and know that my wife knows
every terrible bad thing that I've ever done or been through.
And she loves me for the imperfect person I am and beautiful.
Instead of going out and having to struggle in my life and be
rejected by people who don't accept that, it's like it's a no brainer, you know?
And man, you have to protect your marriage like boundaries
there.
There's so many different ways to protect your marriage.
But like you were saying with that book, you know, you were
you were tempted because you want a desire you want and acceptance.
You want to love.
You want it to be, you know, acknowledged for the things that you've gone through.
And I think that you and your wife have worked so hard that you've you've
finally got to that point where you both have accepted each other
and acknowledged each other and made it such a freeing thing to like
it is to know she knows the bad parts and still loves you the same.
Like, Yeah, man, that kind of grace and love is
is what you aim for in every marriage, in my opinion.
Yeah.
We sure glad it was.
It was about a month ago.
She had gone to, like a solo session with our counselor.
She had made a breakthrough kind of in her story and understanding herself.
So when she came home, she was explaining to me and it was
we just shared this incredible moment where,
you know, she's sharing these things.
And I was able to kind of see through to the heart of them and asked some questions
and, you know,
kind of keeping it.
I'll just like role play a little bit like vague, but, you know, oh,
so is this why you do X, Y and Z? Yes.
You know, and and then I was just so overcome with compassion
and empathy for her.
And we just, like, embraced and held each other.
And in that moment, I felt like £10,000 just fell off of both of us,
you know, like all these walls that we've been building up between us.
They just came crumbling down.
And I it's so hard to put into words
because it's like ten years worth of like, you kind of know it's there, right?
Like, even even when things were good, like,
you could kind of just tell there's still this distance between us, right?
Like, we don't really forgive each other.
We don't really trust each other.
And that all just, like,
shattered, you know, like they all just went away.
And again, I'm we're not perfect.
Like, we're going to mess up like, I'm
going to mess up as I speak probably tomorrow, you know, like,
it's not like everything's solved, but
I feel like we can both breathe again.
And it's beautiful, man.
I'm just I'm just, like, so excited for what the future holds
for us now, because
and I don't even know how to describe it,
but God is good and
he will bring restoration if you can.
And of that, I am convinced.
So we've talked about the past, we've talked about the present
and we've mentioned the future.
What are what are some specific plans that you have for future, both
with your wife and your kid?
So I really want to take I was born in Europe.
I was fortunate enough to go back when I was teenage.
I forget what you're specifically, maybe 17.
I really want to take them to see some of the just the history, right?
We don't.
America is a relatively young country.
We don't have stuff built from the, you know,
the 1800s, you know, castles and stuff.
So I really want to go to Europe and take them there.
That'd be an amazing family trip.
That's kind of like a bucket list thing.
We've looked at several options and that's something
I want to like save money towards and just definitely make happen.
A little less grandiose.
I just in the day to day,
I want
I want people to look at our marriage and go, that's different.
And like, how did you guys get through all that?
You know, I want I want people to be confused
by like hearing this story and then seeing us
and thinking like, how could they possibly recover from that?
And then being able to just turn back and say, like
God's love, man,
like there's literally nothing else that can bring this restoration?
There's no there's no earthly reason we should forgive each other, you know,
that's why it's called grace.
So that's what I want for our marriage.
And then with my daughter,
I mean, she's already eight, so I really.
You got ten years left.
And, you know, I have a vision, obviously,
for how I want to raise her and stuff, but I just want to
I want to make sure that I can put myself in a position
to be there for all the things that really matter.
You know, her first big game or what?
Like all those things that she's going to experience,
whatever she gets into activities wise and that kind of stuff.
Like I just want to be able to be
in a position where she knows that dad always be in her corner.
And it I mean, I don't really care what it can be playing checkers,
but if she's like a checker champion or whatever,
then I'm going to be there cheering her on, you know?
So those hopefully that answers the question Well, but
for me, those are the things that
like when I'm on my deathbed, I'll be proud if I can do those things.
So for men and wives who don't have the time and the resources
to go to something like a mighty Oaks, what what kind of other options,
you know, would you recommend for men who who need healing in their marriage?
Yeah.
So we'll say mighty.
Folks, it's you know, it sounds like an incredible program.
Yes. A mighty Oaks is actually free for the veteran
or a service member or first responder.
So if you know someone who's struggling, it's completely free for them.
They can apply.
I highly recommend it.
I've I've recommended some people go
in. Even if you're active duty like you can get permissive
TDY to go to Mighty Oaks.
They will work with your command to get you there.
So when I say it's, it's probably the best organization
that's doing things for veterans and first responders.
I mean that with all sincerity.
Like, I don't think there's a program doing more actual work
to actually heal them in their marriages than anything else that I know of.
So to that point, it's free.
So if you're not a veteran, you're not a first responder.
Yeah, therapy is expensive.
You know, for me, that's I've had to make that in the budget
as something that I just can't budge on because we needed it.
You can read books.
So for I mean, for me it was a what it well actually was free on Audible.
They had a credit
to get soundly seduced.
There's so much literature out there on these topics that you can at least
start the process and maybe at some point you need to get a professional involved.
But you know, if I would have been reading a lot of this stuff earlier on,
I probably would have made some leaps in my head myself.
So I don't discount reading.
And then there's there's, you know, in your local area,
there's probably a men's group or something or a church group,
you know, maybe things like solar.
I don't know what what
specifically you're referring to, but there's always like things like,
you know, AA or the different versions of that celebrate recovery.
Like those things too, can be very healing because you're seeing other
hurting people. Be honest.
And when you lead with vulnerability like that, it just helps you kind of
let down your own lies
and start accepting the truth and and embracing your response,
what you're responsible for and how to fix it.
So those would be some low cost or free options.
I think that people could
at least start the healing process.
And I think as men, one of our specialties is denying that we have a problem.
You know, we'll watch Football day.
Yeah, it's the old meme or joke.
You know, men will build the Roman Empire instead of going to therapy.
Yeah, of thing.
So the challenge is saying,
I'm willing to confront that I have something that I need to work on
and I'm willing to put the time and the effort into to learn about it.
Yeah, man. Until that point to like,
you know, I think so many guys think like, oh,
I got to be this tough, like, warrior, like alpha, bro.
I've been watching like Sean Ryan recently.
He's had so many dudes on there who are like Delta Force
Special Ops, like some of the hardest people who have ever walked the Earth.
You know?
And every single one of them is like, God save me. And,
you know, I had to go to therapy like every single one of them's like,
all this crap.
We believed all this hypermasculine stuff.
It's not real. It wasn't real like it was.
It was a diluted sense of what a man should be.
And like we ignored so much.
I've just heard that story over and over from, like, those types of guys. So
if they're saying that, then like, dude,
we can to, you know, So hopefully my story and sharing all this helps.
Also, you know, people out there realize that like it's okay to not be okay.
And if you do just a little bit of digging, probably everyone
you know has something that's kind of messed up in their story, too.
You know?
And that's not like it doesn't have to define you,
you know, like, I don't I don't carry it like something that defines me.
It's something I've learned from.
And again, like I'm grateful for for the experiences
because now I've gained so much knowledge and awareness
that I can actually be of service to others.
Yeah.
Would you hire a coach to teach you how to ski?
I would.
Would you hire a mental coach,
you know, to help you or a physical or a spiritual coach
to help you through something?
I think I would, yeah.
And as men, we just have this this roadblock around therapy.
I know. I do.
Embarrassed about the thought of it, you know, of.
Oh, I can't go to therapy.
That's for people who have problems, right? There's something wrong with me.
And I don't know where that came from, but I know that I'm not the only one.
And it's so important to get past that roadblock to heal and to get better.
Yeah, I kind of viewed it like preventative maintenance
checks and services that you do on your military vehicles in the army.
You know, like that every Monday you're in the motor pool
popping the hood open, doing all the all the steps on every vehicle.
You're kind of just doing that for your marriage. Right?
Things may be great.
Good.
Go talk about it.
Upcoming things that might be problematic.
Build the plan together.
You know, like we do that all the time.
Like, oh, we got to go.
We're going to go to this event.
And she's stressed out about it and stuff.
So like, you know, how can we build a plan to, to go to it together
and make sure that we have a good time and all that kind of stuff
like you can pregame to, you know, you don't have to
and not everything has to be past problems.
You can preempt them, which is like that's the goal is to get a point
where you're looking ahead to like, oh, we can stop problems before they start.
That's right.
That's where I'm hoping. I think I'm out now.
So I call the storing away for the winter guys.
Yeah, yeah.
You just you got to prepare as a team.
And the more prepared you are, the better you do.
And when those situations arise and I did want to circle back just to echo
something I agree with.
So the him mentally, which was
church is such a fantastic place
to find trustworthy people
to open up to and to heal yourself.
If you're not going to be able to afford to professional.
And then there's also Christian counseling that is completely supported
by other Christians like we have one here in town,
and it is literally a licensed therapist who is Christian based,
who will walk you through your traumas, who will help you heal.
So, yeah, there's a lot of lot of free stuff out there.
Me personally, I'm kind of a do it yourself are.
So for the past decade I have read just hundreds of books
and worked on myself, you know, sometimes actually slowly.
Well, yeah, yeah, it's catching up.
But like you just you got to be comfortable
with being uncomfortable and you got to take yourself head on.
And like you said, it, it hurts to root out a part of you and kill it.
Oh, yeah.
But it's so worth it
because it makes room for something else to grow and something that's healthy.
You want healthy things to grow in your life, not unhealthy.
And so you have to weed out that things that are growing unhealthy
because they choke out the healthy things and yeah,
yeah, man, you come to a crossroads eventually where
that health is just overwhelmed you so much that you're you're either
rock bottom or you're just you're feeling like you're at your wit's end.
And so, yeah, don't let it get there.
Yeah that's more.
Like that's to your point to you like doesn't have to be a counselor.
It could be a coach or something, you know, something else.
But don't wait till your marriage is like on the brink of disaster, right?
Do it when things. Are much harder to come back from.
Do it when they're good.
Because then you can like, step on the gas,
you know, like you can pedal the metal and you guys can level up like crazy.
You know, It's the. Same with your health.
If you're pretty healthy, it's
yeah, sure to stay healthy than it is to be on the verge of death
and then to try to come back from the brink. You know, really? Yeah.
The same way.
Yeah. I think.
I think people are finally starting to kind of realize that.
But yeah, it does.
And I agree, like, you know. Ooh, counseling.
What a dirty word, you know, And, uh, yeah, I don't want to do that.
That's not going to help, you know.
You know, just to echo, it was.
It was a thing. His name is Tom Satterlee.
He was a Delta Force guy, and he was the one,
you know, like he's talking to, like, a lot of his buddies who were,
you know, Delta guys and stuff.
And and they didn't want to go to counseling or whatever.
Well, you know, they haven't done what I've done any harm to shut up that.
Yeah, they went to school for ten years to learn how to to help you.
So maybe take a breather for a minute and listen and you might learn something.
And I was like,
hey, that's a good that's a good point.
Like, yeah, you learn how to, like, shoot things.
They learn how to heal people. So listen, you know,
and there's bad people everywhere, right?
Of course not.
Not every therapist has to be the world's greatest.
But in general, I think
coaches and therapists and things like that are an amazing resource.
It certainly has been for me.
And yeah, it's good to do it, not just when you're in disaster, but
you can build momentum when things are good. So
yeah.
Yeah, no man is an island and it's so essential
that we have these relationships and these friendships and
sometimes it takes a big leap, you know, to take a week
and go build fellowship with other men or something to change our lives to,
to not be so isolated.
But I mean, your average American dad right now is isolated,
emotionally alone, probably doesn't know how to get access
to a church community or therapy or any of that.
And I hope that that's something we can do is change,
is just bring about these stories and tell people,
hey, there are resources in your community that's worth taking the time.
You know, I know you've got 4 hours
because you watch that entire football game.
You know, I skipped the game
this one Sunday and go work on yourself for a little bit, you know?
Yeah. And watch the game next week.
I mean, that's the or recording.
Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly.
This is so much more time than we say we do that that the trap of busyness
is such a lie. Right.
It really is.
That busy and so that the time is there to, to find it.
Yeah.
You got to make,
you got to make it a priority.
Okay, let's shift gears a little bit.
I want to kind of get in some more lighthearted, personal, fun stuff, right?
Sounds good. So do it.
What is one of the favorite things that you do as a dad like that?
Your kid just lights up when you do it.
I do this thing
at like bedtime.
My daughter will ask me to do the sugar gun and it's like
I just like rapid fire kisses, like a machine gun, you know?
And she'll, like, try and hide for me under the blanket and stuff.
And so, like, we just do a bunch of, like, really goofy little things like that.
I'm sure she'll grow out of all this very soon, unfortunately.
But, you know, I try to not take myself too seriously.
You know,
we need to show up differently in different roles, right?
Like when you're at work.
Yeah. You need to be serious. All that.
But like, it's a little just like, let it go, man.
Like, just have fun.
So, yeah, I try to do a lot of things like that, but recently
another thing I've started doing that I added to my morning routine
is I'm taking a sticky note for my wife and a sticky note for my daughter.
And I just write a real simple kind of personal affirmation,
and I kind of just change it up every day to something real quick.
Really.
I love that.
And so I put one on my wife's mirror and I put one on my daughter's
bedroom door and I've been doing it for a few days.
And I asked her, I was like, Hey, did you, uh, did you see my notes?
And she's and she immediately lit up like, like it was Christmas morning.
And she's like, Yeah, I did.
And she came up and gave me a hug and she Look, look, look.
I'll show you.
And she's, she's been folding them up and saving them in her drawer in her dresser.
And so I was like,
Yeah, okay, I'm going to keep doing that.
So there's, there's a free, free piece of advice for everyone to that's like
the easiest ten second investment that paid massive dividends.
But yeah, don't take yourself too seriously.
And then be intentional about like little things like that that just speak
life into your life and your daughter.
You know, it's, it's funny because
when she's older, her future husband
is going to get a glimpse of the love that's going to be required.
Yeah.
Standard, which you set, right? Exactly.
I should make it real now.
It's like writing my daughter notes every day
so your dusty son can't impress her with a card on the first day.
You know nothing like that.
But it a part of it,
too, is just like it's our role as.
As husband and father, Right? Is to
to shower the women in our lives with truth.
And your sons, too. Like, I don't have a son.
But if I had a son, I would tell him every day, too.
I'm proud of you, son.
You know, like even when you mess up, like the fact that you're just working hard.
I'm super proud of you, you know, And I always will be like, stuff like that.
You need to say that. You need to write it down.
You need to do it
because they're looking to you first and foremost
for like their security blanket in the world, you know,
And if you start their day every day like that, you're
kind of shielding them before the world even has a chance to get to them. So
it's something I started
doing recently and I definitely am going to continue to do it
because it's just a very easy way that I can make a personal
like truth bomb, you know, for them like that, that just protects them.
There.
Any special Hayworth holiday traditions for Christmas are Thanksgiving
that you you're looking forward to.
Well, this year we're going to be in Cancun for Thanksgiving.
So that's a little weird.
I've never done that before, but not complaining
traditions
we really don't like.
We don't have any, like massive traditions that we do.
We kind of
do like a dirty Santa thing, you know, like the gag gift game.
We'll do that pretty much every year.
Mostly we just get together
as as family and just just enjoy the time, you know?
So, no, I don't have any, like, massive traditions.
I just really look forward to, like, daughter loves
decorating the Christmas tree.
She's already asked us.
We put it up because we're going to be gone.
So we put up the tree, but it's like we haven't decorated yet.
And pretty much every day she's like, Can we decorate?
So that's always fun.
But now, yeah, I mean, I just enjoy
the the little things, you know, like when she opens a present
and she's like, Oh, but yeah, maybe that's a lame answer.
But yeah, we don't really have traditions. I guess it's lame.
I guess that's my child made.
I guess it was Hans Gruber falling off of the Nakatomi Tower.
All right, Like that.
That person die hard every Christmas for like it is a Christmas movie.
I don't care what.
You say it is.
A Christmas tree Is is not the best one.
And it's definitely not Christian.
But I grew. Up watching it.
I was like, I got I got it back up.
There is one Christmas tradition that I love
because it's man, it's the Muppets Christmas Carol.
I think that's hands down.
Like you have to watch that every year.
Top three Christmas movies of all time.
But my brother and I watch that movie so much as kids.
Like, I know every line, you know, like I know every song and
but I love like this.
That's what's so cool is like,
it was something that my brother and I watch nonstop.
Like we do it every year with my daughter and she loves it.
And like, that's just so amazing that you can be a generation later
and just still, like, enjoy the same things.
And so that is one we do that every year.
We watch that a lot every Christmas season.
So I guess you could say that that's a Hayworth family
tradition, one that I'll keep going because that movie rocks.
Yes. Yes.
I think one of the best ones for us is when we get our kids, we get them excited,
they'll put on their pajamas, will cook hot cocoa as a popcorn.
And then we do the Polar Express.
So they say nice and hot cocoa, and they kind of get into and and yeah.
And then of course, you get your Grinch and everybody else that you can watch is
tons of good stuff.
But yeah, and you can recreate and interact with it,
which is so much more valuable than sticking your kid in front of it.
Yeah, kind of.
Yeah. Yeah, they're part of it. That's really cool.
I think that's such an important part
of being a dad is trying to plan things that are fun like,
Oh yeah, If you don't have traditions, dads, make them
be creative.
Just brainstorm, take you like 10 minutes
and then go buy the stuff that Walmart or whatever you use and yeah.
Or don't be creative.
Ask Chad Getty What are the.
Three. Goals traditions?
You go.
Pick your favorite out of those. Noodle.
Yeah Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah yeah yeah.
And it it like ties to legacy too.
Like it can happen in the small things you just just start it just.
I always Nick Fraser said, Yeah, this is your chance to start over.
I'm like, Yeah, you don't have to like,
I mean, if you didn't like how it was growing up, change it.
So do your own thing now.
Like it's your households, your family.
If, if they have fun doing it, then do it, you know? So
yeah I we've been looking up a lot of those like silly
like really silly games that you see like TikTok videos and stuff
or Instagram videos and we definitely want to try a few of those this year, like,
you know, get all the adults together.
There's like really hilarious ones.
You put like a present box, like around your belt line
and you have stuff in and you have to like, shake to get them out, you know?
So you've got like grown men, like
basically twerking a little present to try and get the stuff to fly out.
So there's lot of goofy stuff like that.
I think we might try out this year just to have fun.
But yeah,
very cool. I like it.
So looking back on her childhood, what do you think
your daughter is going to be the most proud of her dad for.
What I think
she'll say or what I hope she says.
Maybe a blend of the two.
It's kind of hard to project your eight year old to be, like,
fully grown and what they would say
she'd be most proud about.
I hope she would say
that she's most proud about
how I love her mother and how hard I work to
to be present with her
and to set an example for
like what she should look for, but what she'd probably say,
Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe she'd say, I'm proud that my dad was in the army.
I don't know. Maybe.
Maybe that he worked hard for us, so.
I don't know.
That's that's a tough question.
We should maybe throw that one out to future guests.
Yeah, I might have to circle back at that one.
I love that your focus, though, was not on your accomplishments or that
you have a six pack or that you, you know, made a lot of money, but that it was
that you spent time with her and that that's what was valuable to you
and, even if she doesn't immediately think of that
emotionally, that's important to her and that's valuable to her.
Yeah, You know, so it's not always what we think.
You know, when I think of my grandfather, I think of his accomplishments.
But what I should think about is the time he spent with me.
The fact that you took time away from work, you know, to spend time with me.
I mean, that's. Yeah, that's what really matters.
That's really cool. That's the first thing that popped into your head.
And you went right there. That's yeah, great thing.
And the way I try and do that and my wife is fully on board
with this too, is, you know, we, we, we buy less things and we take more trips.
And I think Barton said something very similar right recently.
But yeah, I mean, we do that.
We just do little trips all over.
We, you know, we try and be very frugal about them.
Ones that are driving range have hotel points and stuff like that. But
those I
think are going to be those types of memories
that she will vividly remember for the rest of her life.
And those are where you build the family culture.
That's where you build the tight knit bonds.
You know, it's not because you bought her something awesome, right?
Like, that's cool in the moment, but they'll probably forget about it
at some point.
I don't think she's going to forget any of the trips that we've taken
because we try to do a lot.
And, you know, it's not just about the fun.
I think it
it teaches them about the world, right?
They get to see these different places
and realize that the world is this big, amazing place.
And there's a lot of really cool things to see.
And it creates like a healthy desire for adventure and exploration.
And I think those are vitally important for both boys and girls. So
that's why I like
I kind of went to like, I hope she'll say something to the back.
I'm really proud about, like how hard, how much he loved us and
and things of that nature because that was that's one of the ways
we try to really demonstrate that is through like consistent family trips.
They're not all big to Cancun, You know, They're like a lot of little ones, like
just a couple hours away or something.
And it builds curiosity and exciting to see the world, which is so important.
I mean, I think, you know, going forward, whether you get an A or B on your physics
test is probably not as important as you're curious about the world,
because the world is changing so much that her willingness to explore
new things will be what makes her happy and successful, and not necessarily
that she studied the hardest and got the best grades.
Yep. All right.
I got a tough one for you.
Keep them coming.
What is the word legacy mean to you?
So I think legacy is the imprint
of your actions.
So it doesn't even have to be about me necessarily.
Like I don't even need people to say like when I'm gone,
like, oh, it's because George did this, that this happened.
But the actual impact that it makes, I think that's real legacy.
Yeah, it's great
if people remember your name or whatever, but okay, you're dead.
Who cares?
Like, you won't be here, but your kids will be here.
The people that you interacted with will be here.
So I think genuine legacy and the type of legacy
we should fight to build is that one where, you know,
the ripple effects of your efforts actually made a difference.
So like, this podcast is one of those that's one way I want to,
you know, I want to leave a mark on the world that that added positivity
and help to it, not more negativity and more destruction.
And you know, so
when I think about legacies, I think it also is categorized
like your family legacy and the legacy you left
with your work or the legacy you left with,
you know, other other things that you did.
They can all be really good.
And it's not like you just have to have the one. So
yeah, I think I think it's,
you know, if you could measure the impact
of what you did and how it impacted others,
that's a legacy worth fighting for. Hmm.
I love that.
So with building legacies and building things of life,
what are some of the primary goals for yourself?
Not just your family, but yourself?
For me personally, it's been
like seeking out my weak points
and exposing them and
improving them and.
You know, this this last year.
Yeah, this last year has been one of just massive growth for me
through doing like family captain.
I'm an apogee now,
working with all these guys who have been doing the podcast,
like listening
to all these men who have just accomplish great things or have so much wisdom,
and I just have a hunger for
being a little bit better every day.
And so,
yeah, I mean, I'll just keep it simple.
That's, that's really it is just exposing those weak points or the areas that I
don't have good awareness in
having others around me to point them out for me so that I'm not
lacking as a father, as a husband,
as a professional.
So that, yeah, like I can build a legacy that matters, not not to please me,
but to actually make a difference so that my efforts are not in vain.
The constant improvement is so essential.
It's so satisfying to it's
it's the same reason that so many of us play video games and love to level up
is because it's more satisfying to do it to yourself, of course.
But yeah, that's an essential thing that all she says to
very.
You walk right in that one.
But it's exactly
so, George, what makes you a great friend
and specifically a great friend to other fathers?
I know you have some special things to give to your friends.
I know I've learned a lot from you.
What do you see as your
your special gift that you can give to other men and other fathers?
I think it's that intensity
I talked about in part one.
You know, my my wife has seen this.
She's like, you know, most people don't come by discipline like you do.
Like you just kind of have it.
That's not normal for pretty much everyone.
And I was like, that's a good point.
And I think that kind of came with
from the way I was raised and the intensity
I've learned excuse me, I've learned, you know, how to temper that, of course.
But I think I mean, I'd love to hear
back your response based on what I'm saying, from how you know me. But
I think that's something I bring to the table that is a little bit unique.
And I think people know, like my close friends, like, you guys know,
I may not always my delivery may not be the greatest.
Always at the end of the day, like, I just want you to succeed and like,
I just want you to be better and I'll say the hard things
to do that and because I believe that if I didn't, I would just be
enabling you to continue to suffer, and I don't want that for you.
So I think
I think that's I answer that.
What do you think?
As as my close friends who work with me frequently,
I'd love to hear the counter to what I said and I.
Think it's the hair. It's just the hair.
It's a little I'll get it cut tomorrow.
It's way too long right now.
I think you nailed it.
I don't like to have those hard conversations.
I like to keep it easy and smooth things over.
And that's just not always what what men need.
We need honesty.
And we need someone who's willing to say the part out loud that needs to be said.
And in a group of ten men where nine or willing to
gloss over something that everyone can see, you're
the one who's willing to jump in there and say, I know you will see this.
This is a problem.
Let's fix it. Yeah, for that.
That is it's such an important thing that everyone needs.
And so many men are not willing to to do that because it's uncomfortable
and because we've been taught that that's toxic.
Right.
And you are my most toxic friend and I love you for that. Yes.
Well, so
it's funny you say that, though, because I'm an Enneagram type eight.
So if you don't know what the Enneagram thing
is, it's not the be all end all, but it's an interesting personality test.
And it freaking nailed me when I did the test and got the results, I was like,
Oh man, this thing like, poured in my soul and saw everything thing, you know?
But the Type eight is the protective challenger,
assertive, self-confident, intense, big hearted and confrontational.
So I was like, Oh, man, yeah,
they'll me.
But I think you guys were type sevens, right?
3 to 4 and a seven. Yeah.
Okay. Yep.
But yeah I. The same personality type.
It's good that I have you guys to balance my type eight ness and
I can be a bull in a china shop.
Yeah, I know.
A roomful of ten of that would be a bomb.
It'd be unbearable.
Yeah,
that person is ethnicity and diversity are holy.
I mean, the Bible speaks of it, says that it's good to have that diversity
and that ethnicity difference because we learn from each other.
And yeah, the one thing I can say just on my part
is that, you know, I am a perfectionist.
I am a person who will study something and principle
to the point that I master it in my mind, but I don't master an application.
And one of your strong suits is you know it,
but you don't have to know it intimately and perfectly to act on it.
And so one of the things that you've encouraged me through is you've modeled
how to just act and learn as you're acting.
Yeah.
And I think experience always been my greatest teacher,
but I've been so blinded with this perfectionist attitude
that I'm not I'm trying to learn without the experience.
I'm trying to learn in my mind, and I just need to act.
Sometimes. I just need to do what I'm supposed to do.
And so you push me to do that.
And then of course you're disciplined. It's next level, so it helps.
I, I don't know if it's just
the way I was raised or the Army beat it into me or a combination of both.
But it's funny,
it's interesting you say
that about just like taking action, because the third step of troop
leading procedures is to make a necessary movement.
So there's still multiple steps beyond that.
And, you know, that was definitely something that was taught
through the military to me.
But part of
part of that, too, is to not rely on you.
Like that's another thing I learned very quickly was
you don't have to be the best soldier.
You don't have to be the smartest guy in the room.
You know why?
Because you've got that guy who is in that guy?
Who is? And that guy like that guy's the most lethal dude in the platoon.
So make him lethal.
And you just direct things.
And so you you can do the same thing with fatherhood.
You don't have to be perfect.
You don't have to know all the things.
But surround yourself with a bunch of other new
to know more than you, and they'll teach you and rub off on you
and and then just do your best every day and like, take action.
So, yeah, well, I appreciate your guys kind words
about me.
I know at times I can be a lot to handle and a lot to deal with.
But I love you guys for for bearing with me.
It's what I. Value, Right?
Tape. Don't worry, man.
But it's why they make sleep Tape?
Yeah.
So I guess if you guys have any final questions, we.
Can you let it rip now?
I think we're good.
I'm doesn't have a tree, man. You got anything? You?
No. I just want to really appreciate you coming on the cast, George,
and being our guest today.
Hey, guys. Thank you so much, man.
This is so cool.
Like, can I do this all the time?
I'm 60.
I guess it's just like, thanks for thanks for getting through this.
You know, this is heavy stuff
and I appreciate the fact that you guys have always, like,
been there to to listen and to to be supportive.
And, you know, you guys are modeling what we talk about all the time. So
I guess if I can just close what I want people to take away from me,
sharing my story is not to feel sorry for me or not to.
I don't like any of that kind of stuff,
but just take the lessons
learned from from my story
take the examples of like what not to do
and do the inverse and,
you know, just just take action in your life based off of that,
you know, So if you hear this and it like clicked with you,
I hope it helps you too, to learn from my mistakes. And
if anyone else is listening, then they need help.
They want to reach out like don't be a stranger
that you can connect with us over our socials
and may take us a minute to get back to you.
But we will.
And you know, it.
You made a great point, Dustin.
Like, it's it's hard work.
It is very hard to dig deep within yourself
and shake these things loose and and get rid of them.
But it might be the most important thing you do,
because once you do, you'll show it better as a husband, as a father,
just as a man at work, like everything you do will be better because of it.
And stopping the pain with you.
Make that we don't pass it on to the next generation.
So that would be kind of my
my plea to the audience who hears this.
Everyone's struggling.
Everyone has issues, but we all can be victors.
And you don't have to do it alone.
So with that,
enough talk, dads, Let's get climbing the Mountain of fatherhood.
Thanks for listening.
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