Welcome to the Present Fathers podcast.
This is the show that focuses on climbing the mountain of fatherhood
together.
We believe that dads matter.
That's why this show is for you.
So gear up, dads. Get ready.
It's time to start climbing.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Present Fathers podcast.
Our guest tonight is John Michael Clarke.
This is a repeat visit for him and we are really excited.
John Michael Clarke specializes in helping men with family leadership
and sex and marriage.
He's on a mission to help guys lead with strength and love.
He cuts through the clichés to be a spiritual leader and grant specific
or sorry, and gets specific to help men gain confidence,
earn the admiration of their wives and children, and lead like Jesus.
His unique approach to coaching brings a simplicity, humor,
practicality, and strength that men appreciate and respond to.
Welcome back, John. Michael How are you doing, man?
George What's up, brother?
Guys, thank you so much for having me.
It's a joy to be with you.
Yeah, I'm a big because last time Justin wasn't here,
so I'm pumped that we got the full group with you now
and think it's like in some some of the family.
Captain Truths tonight.
So with that, let's go back to the basics.
And why don't you tell us about the program
and you know how you coach men to be better leaders of their families?
Yeah, man.
So the program is all about me
giving myself what I wish I'd had ten years ago.
I love my wife.
We were doing well
as far as I knew, and everything was fine, and she would have said the same thing.
But I just had this sense that there was more.
You know, if somebody said, Well, what's the problem?
I said, I don't know exactly.
I just looking back, I'm very thankful for the Holy Spirit's direction
to show me that there's more.
You can go to another level. There's better than fine.
There's better than happily married.
It's what I now call ecstatically married.
And I found that when you approach start to approach
that level ten, the Lord shows you it goes to 100, which is good news.
Not a discouraging thing where you start
to approach level 100 in the Lord says, Hey, it goes to a thousand actually.
So I don't know where I'm at in in that chart at this point,
but I know I'm not stopping.
I know that the sweeter it gets, the sweeter it gets.
And Natalie and I both are saying, Yes, Lord.
So. Well, that's a different conversation, too.
But in all areas of life, as well as the bedroom. So
it started with,
you know, a journey of what does it look like to lead?
Well, because I knew our issues were in, particularly when it came down
to this whole headship and submission thing.
I knew there was something missing there.
All I ever knew was like, Hey, we're 50, 50 partners, I guess, you know,
I don't really know what it looks like beyond that.
And then the other thing was sex and marriage.
I wanted more frequency, I wanted more freedom.
And I didn't like how it seemed like my wife is really the keeper of the sex.
I'm the seeker of the sex.
If I you know, if I try and do all the right things, if I try and wash
the dishes instead of be the family captain, if I can be the family butler,
you know, maybe she'll admire me. Maybe she'll be aroused by me.
Maybe she'll want to have more sex with me.
And all your listeners are like, Yeah, I've tried that too.
I know it didn't work,
but the Lord eventually showed me here, big boy, you can have everything you want.
The respect, the admiration, the sex life I'm on. Great.
Thank you, sir.
And he says you'll just have to change as a man to have it.
But I was on board for that.
Like I wasn't like, Oh, never mind then.
I was genuinely wanted to walk in the fullness of what God had for me as a man.
And that's a process, of course, but that's what I did.
And after Natalie and I started walking and enjoying the ecstasy
of all that emotion, praise God, if I got the love, I'll get my own.
I now I can help my brothers to get the speck out of theirs.
And that's what the family captain's all about.
So we got multiple ways and programs and coaching where I work with guys
to transform their lives.
And with the flagship thing that we do is the family captain elite,
which of course George you know about.
And guys come through the idea
things are good, things are fine, and we go, we just take off
and accelerate them and mission and vision and Christlike leadership.
No beating your chest?
No. There's a new sheriff in town, little lady, none of that.
But really
focusing on your self leadership so that your wife gets to enjoy the fruit.
The kids get to enjoy the fruit, and you get to enjoy the fruit.
Yeah.
So I have been through the program, absolutely loved it.
You know, I went into it thinking our marriage is pretty good.
And, you know, I was seven, eight and realized pretty quickly how how blind
I was and a lot of areas of my own life and needed to
level up, as you say.
And the thing that I want to just re-emphasize for you that you make
very clear right up front with the guys is this is a work on you program.
This isn't a Fix your Wife program.
And you know, it really is solely centered around,
like you say, you know, become the best man your wife has ever known.
And if you work from that starting point,
then everything you're doing is personal growth
and personal improvement based off of biblical truths and,
you know, it doesn't get into like the he said she said type of situation.
It's literally just be better, you know.
And so I think if people are a little turned off at first, that's,
you know, don't don't twist this into something.
It's not it's it's very pure.
And John Michael, you know,
I will say, having worked with you through the program, you have a gift
for really discerning people's different situations
and applying the right wisdom to each different scenario.
And I've seen it over and over through all the different
you know, meetings we had with all the guys and,
you know,
just being able to really cut through to where each man was at in his own life
and all of the context and giving practical advice that really helped,
you know, make a lot of improvement very quickly.
So that's my little plug for you as a as a graduate of the program.
And yeah, man, I loved it.
I'm still learning a lot and just appreciate what you're doing.
So it's such a joy is such a blessing.
You know, the point you made about the self leadership and the work on you,
if anything, I think that's more of a turnoff
for most guys because they're like, Well, but I really want to get her straight.
So which I say, I know, but here's the principle, brother,
that you it's obvious to those who have walked it out
and that is the feminine will respond to the masculine.
Or let me say more specifically,
the feminine is already responding to the masculine, for better or worse.
And the captain, we just make sure it's for better.
Yeah, it's it's pretty obvious to once
you apply some of the basics
and within a couple of weeks you can already start to notice
differences in most cases, I think where
if she starts responding in a positive way
as opposed to, yeah, you're doing your job, you're leading so right.
And you didn't have an all night conversation about it,
You didn't say, Let me show you these verses.
You know, none of that.
Just be the guy.
And she's going, Well, I have a new husband. Mr.
2.0 showed up. I like this guy.
This is interesting. This is different. This is fun.
This is loving.
Generally speaking, people aren't going to reject bad leadership.
You know, who's this new boss who's amazing,
who treats us with compassion and uses his responsibility to take ownership
and only uses his authority to do what's best for us.
Who's this guy I you like?
We just welcome it.
We go, Praise God, what a great scenario we got.
I love that.
So, John, Michael, we've talked a lot about spouses and relationships.
Do you get into leadership with children as well?
Do you find that being part of the family captain has to do with
leading your children as well as leading the entire family?
Absolutely.
So the the primary thing that we see happen with
guys is the example that they set in their own self.
Leadership immediately starts to show up in their children,
sometimes even before their wife, because kids are watching their dad
and they're wanting to adjust
and they feel the effects and they're also the warmest.
So a wife who might even have some bitterness, might even have
some resentment, might even have a grudge from years of whatever wasn't happening.
The moment it starts happening, the kids response is typically, yippee,
hooray, this is great.
Whereas the wife is kind of like, we'll see about that at times.
So it's a really easy inroad for a lot of guys.
Even with their teenagers, we find ways to flank the grumpy teenager
and we find ways to shepherd them.
But yeah, we talk a lot about helping your kids go from one season to the next.
In life,
we build
family identity so that each household actually has
a thumbprint to say, This is who we are, this is what we're about.
So all this comes back into Dad's quality
time with his kids and we get practical there as well.
If I can just interject to a little bit of the family culture impacts of it.
You know, we just had a guy share a win in the group
about, you know, his teenage
child, had some of their friends over and they were going to join him
out in the village. Yeah.
And they were going to their family meeting.
And, you know, he invited the outside kids to stay and have dinner.
And it was this amazing thing where the other kids were like, I'm so jealous.
Your family has this tight knit, you know, identity.
And so there's a lot of fruit that comes way beyond
just the relationship with your wife, you know?
And it's it really
I think the thing that you drive home pretty quickly with the whole work
on your cell thing is that fruit extends way beyond through your leadership.
And so that was just a great example
that literally just happened this week, you know?
Yeah. And I just want to call that out here.
Yeah, that was awesome.
Well, it goes back to
the if you really want to know how good of a man
a man really is, you go straight to his wife and his kids, right?
And so you can really test the fruit of somebody by going to them.
And, you know, if they're saying he's the best man, I know, like you've said,
or your kids are saying, you're the best daddy ever
and they mean it and they're wholehearted and they're happy
and their smile and they show all these different fruits, it's 100%
the most satisfying thing you'll ever have as far as success.
It's way better than money, power, or any of that stuff.
So, yeah, these these programs, I love seeing your program, especially
because it's like he said, you have humor, you have realistic conversations
like a lot of people will just they'll surface level.
Oh, you could do this.
Start with this. It's like, no, no, no, no, no.
Get down to the real root.
Grab the roots out, pull it right your fix yourself,
and then everything else kind of smooths out after, you know?
So I love leadership is.
I'm sorry, Brianna, I cut you off. No, no, go ahead.
Leadership is a gift that heals families.
I believe that when I started on this journey
and now I believe it 100 fold now,
one of the things that I find myself doing,
and this is the kind of thing I say to Natalie
all the time, is like I tell her, I'm like,
I don't say half of what I believe
when it comes to how powerful this stuff is,
because I don't think anyone would believe me.
I think they would think I'm selling something in an orphanage to them.
I am like, But there's many days where I wish I wasn't.
Then I would grab everyone by the freaking throat
and I would and I would shove it down their throat as well and say, listen,
this is this is good. This is true, is beautiful.
I can't overstate the power of a godly family culture.
I can't overstate the significance of building something beautiful.
I can't overstate the depth of an amazing marriage and and children who are secure
and in all the like, you guys are talking about the collateral advantages,
as I call them, stuff that I would never predict.
When a guy comes on board, I'm like, Hey,
we know we're going to get these outcomes.
That's not really up for question,
but what's cool was going to see what the Lord does with this.
What else happens that we could have never predicted.
It's just it doesn't stop.
But this is how the Lord is set up the world.
It started with a family.
It's going to finish with a family.
It's family here in the middle.
And it comes down to the man who's leading that household.
And it's a beautiful thing.
Yeah.
So, John Michael, what do you think are the the most common pitfalls
that most men are falling into where,
you know, they think they're doing the right thing,
like you said, you know,
oh, if I just beat the family butler, maybe she'll be more.
So what are what are those some of those things?
Because I think a lot of people
may not even realize that they're doing the wrong thing in the first place.
Right. So that's probably a good place to start.
Yeah.
I mean, it's the stuff that you guys have heard before.
It's the sense that we get on a straight from Adam.
It's the passivity and I want to defer responsibility.
Lord, it's not me.
Is this woman that you gave actually, is your immediate apology.
Come to think of it.
And then, of course, modern culture.
And I won't blame culture. It's the snake.
We're not working with flesh and blood.
So it's Satan.
It's the spirit of the age, constantly
beating this message into us of what's called equality, really also
meaning sameness instead of actual equal and value and worth,
which all Christians agree with.
But role and distinction matter and our wives have suffered for it.
Christian women are anxious, Christian women are depressed,
Christian men are anxious, Christian men are depressed.
And the lies we've been sold about marriage and partnership
and 5050, like they make everybody miserable on paper.
Nobody can argue with them,
but that's only because they don't know what they're talking about.
They don't know how good it is
and how manly it feels, how good it feels to take that burden on.
So I rejected that forever.
I was passive,
but I got to hide behind Natalie's competency, and many husbands do the same.
I my wife's amazing. She's powerful.
He seems as though he's Mr.
Perfect Feminist, which.
Yeah, but, you know, he seems great because he's so primitive of her,
but really, he's hiding behind her.
She's a shield, and she is standing between him and the world.
And it should be just the opposite.
And that's a hard pill to swallow.
That was a hard one for me to swallow, to actually realize,
Oh, I'm really just a coward and I'm in.
I'm bragging.
On Natalie's competency,
although she is competent, godly, wise, wonderful, beautiful.
There's a place there's a way for that to show up as my helper, as my wife,
not as the head of the household,
not to be another husband in the house.
Yeah.
So I think that was something I love about what Brandon said.
You know, even if you are the best man to other people,
being a real man and being a true leader, it's a constant battle.
It's something you're always going to keep doing.
So, you know, you could be the best, but you need to continue to improve,
even if you're the best, you can be better.
And I think that's that's a great point.
And I think that's something called voucher programs.
So I like that fact.
So so,
John Michael, if you don't mind, go into your three legs of leadership
in case there's a new person, because it's an amazing concept
and I even apply it partially because it's so good and just go into what
what kind of leadership qualities a man needs to work on.
Yeah.
So I've I've never been able to hold on
to all the definitions of leadership that I've heard.
There's like the 97 precepts and the 21 concepts and like,
and those are super good.
I just am not ever going to do anything with them.
So thankfully I don't take credit for it because the Holy Spirit gave it to me.
I remember where I was standing.
It dropped in me like a quarter in a phone booth.
I don't know if all your listeners know
the phone booth is, but they're these things from the past.
And when the quarter hit, it hit, you know, it was like in there.
But the three legs of leadership, the way we define
leadership, are compassion, responsibility and authority.
If you're watching us, you can see like like this rudder here.
So on the three legs, as we're elevating this platform,
we want all three legs to be balanced, but we define them in a very particular way.
We define compassion as you love your family a lot and they know it
not just I told them I love them and I mean it,
but can they feel that there's a warmth and there's a care for them?
There being nurtured.
You're gentle with your wife in particular and your children responsibility.
We define that as you take ownership for all of the outcomes.
It doesn't mean that every single thing that ever happens is your fault.
It just means that you're the one who always goes, This is this is on me.
And so as the captain of a ship, if the ship runs aground,
that captain is fired.
That's happened multiple times actually in the past decade in the Navy.
And one of the cases, the captain wasn't even on board.
But yes, who lost their job because it's his ship and.
Well, you didn't train them well enough, apparently.
So we take ownership of all the outcomes and this helps us to not
be a victim anymore.
This helps us to not be like, well, this woman you gave me or the kids,
but it forces our creativity.
It forces our dependance on our head to say, Lord, help me instead of
I quit.
And then the third leg, and this is the leg that culture would push back upon.
And unfortunately, even the church.
But there is no leadership without authority.
So we don't talk about authority with any kind of apology.
And we define authority again in a particular way.
Authority is the power.
The power to what authority is the power to do what's best for your family.
So this would apply anywhere.
Like everybody knows their boss has authority over him.
If he takes ownership, well, that's a surprise and that's a blessing.
If he's compassionate, that's great, too.
We see this in all areas of life.
We recognize that leadership means authority.
But there's this one environment
where when it comes to leadership, we want this guy to be compassionate.
Melvin, you better be compassionate.
Yes. Okay, Melvin, you better take ownership of all the outcomes.
It's all your fault.
Also is what Melvin stole. Melvin goes, okay.
And then Melvin says, Do I have any actually power? No.
No, you don't.
You can't.
You can care a lot and you can try real hard.
But no, you don't like actual ability to move things.
Be a servant leader, man.
Just if you were a better servant leader, Melvin,
maybe everyone would follow you automatically.
It's like the Queen of England. You're a figurehead, like
uniform guy.
And there.
And it's not that.
It's not that Christians don't believe in authority.
It's just that where they place it,
they do believe there's authority in a marriage.
They just won't say it out loud.
They hide behind the phrase of it's 5050.
Well, anytime a guy tells me he's murdered 5050, me and his wife look at each other
and this is hypothetical and she and I both know better.
And then this is the why that the church has been pretending for a while now.
It's 5050. It's not. It's not.
There's no such thing.
And somebody is going to defer.
Somebody is going to submit.
And of course, we reject the extreme that Melvin Melvin is.
This guy that I pick on this fictional character.
Melvin is me. It's Melvin is the flesh.
But Melvin wants to reject his responsibility by jumping
to an extreme caricature of going, I guess you just want to drag women around
by their hair to which I would say, first of all, that's a private bedroom
conversation for every couple, and I'm not going to go there.
But second of all, no, of course not. We hate sin.
We reject sin. The scripture makes no place for it.
So any abuse of example you have from some jackass who taught it
improperly or a church who modeled it wrong, we reject it.
We reject both sins.
Melvin.
We reject the tyrant and we reject the passive wimp.
Which one are you, brother?
Which one is most of Christian culture?
Well, you got to be careful with that stuff.
You don't need to be careful with the Word of God.
You need to be obedient to the Word of God.
And when you are, everyone will actually thrive.
But if your wife is not thriving,
if she is not freaking flourishing brother, if you're not a man
on fire, excited about your family culture, your family identity,
if it's just a place you got to go and try and keep momma happy.
Good news, good news.
All that can be changed by walking in obedience to the Lord.
Yeah.
And the other thing you share a lot about is, you know
that leadership that's using all three legs effectively.
So you're a balanced leader. You know who is.
You have the authority through compassion, right?
You're not just a tyrant.
You create a covering for your family, a shelter that they can reside
in, and especially for your wife, that creates
an environment where she isn't carrying the weight of the world.
All the time.
And her anxiety isn't just at peak levels
because you've put half of the burden on her.
And it's not saying that your wife does nothing.
That's again, don't twist what we're saying here.
You know, it's
you know, people love to do that these days.
They'll they'll take a little snip and cut it up.
And to make it sound like you're saying something you're not.
That's not what we're saying.
We are saying that the husband has a role.
The wife has a role.
And together you raise a family that is strong.
And to deny
either role is a disservice to your children.
And ultimately they're their next generation, too.
So that's you know,
that's why you get so fired up about it, is because it's the truth.
And for too long, we've shied away from that truth.
And I think the society we have today is very indicative of,
well, the lie is obviously a lie and it's it's making a lot of damage.
So, um, you know,
the stats right now are just trying to force, you know,
child delinquency, you know, that kind of stuff.
I mean, it's the status quo is not working.
So maybe, you know, that's something you talked about a lot in
my own circles is like,
you know, maybe our great grandparents did have it more right.
You know, I'm sure they have plenty of flaws,
but they didn't seem to struggle with a lot of stuff.
We are like, what was different?
So, yeah, the fruit tells the truth, man.
Like, Well, I'm going to do it this way.
All right, Well, your way sucks, as evidenced by the fruit that you're facing.
So I'm not mad at you. I'm happy for you.
Like people have been lied to,
and it feels like a heavy burden is very intimidating.
At first when I got here,
this, first of all, because right now it's just like it sounds like theory.
Sounds like what does that look like? What does that mean?
No, bro, you don't know my wife.
You know, all the objections that come up instead of
even if it's going to be difficult, even if it's going to be challenging.
Jesus went to the
cross wire for the joy that was set before him.
You wouldn't think of the cross as a joyful thing.
And much has been made about the difference
between joy and happiness, but it's the joy of the outcome.
So if you want if if we were to give our lives
for our families, that would actually provide a deep joy.
That would be a deep that's like a male fantasy man.
Like, I hope that I can kill 900 ninjas at 3 a.m.
and then as I kill the last one, I'm bleeding out.
My family's all around like Dad. We love you.
I'm like, I love you.
You know, I'm like, That's a deep joy.
It's not the happiest day.
But I'm happy to give myself in a provisional way for them.
I'm like, I'm happy to be first in line, and I'm happy to suffer
for a purpose, not for nothing, but for a purpose.
And when men actually realize, Bro, this is your garden, you get to tend it.
You've been living in it as an employee,
but when you start living in your garden as an owner, it is exciting.
It's actually fun. Like, that's the big piece.
It's fun. Dude.
Your life is the video game.
You get to level up your character and your character is you blue.
Oh, he just got some strength points.
That's the level of sounding. In case you guys didn't know,
like, Oh, he can get better at it and then post for you.
He can get better in romance, like he can get better at finances.
Like, well, I know the video game gives you the quicker dopamine here,
but this other one leaves a legacy that impacts a thousand generations
and and it will impact your bedroom.
And it will impact the boardroom.
And it will impact I don't know any other room that you and your wife.
But yeah, one quick thing that someone said, I forget who was the
said it to me, but it really should drive the point home
is, you know, like you were talking about the fantasy.
Oh, you know, I'll die for my family.
Every guy says that I'll take a bullet for my family.
Yeah. Are you going to live for them?
And that's where it's the daily leadership using the three legs.
And a lot of the principles that you teach that most guys aren't doing.
And they don't realize that they're wounding their family
by not owning up to that and making I would die for my family.
Cool.
We wake up with the alarm clock for the first time for your family.
Exactly what does that got to do with anything? Aha.
It's got everything to do with everything. Yeah.
So I would rule over the moon.
If I was the president, I'd be the best.
But I was president and a big, huge.
Yeah, I'd be huge first of all. But.
But are you rolling over your household, will you know,
are you ruling over yourself.
Well, because of your faith one
little the Lord's going to add to that your influence overall.
Yeah.
And so I actually this is completely off topic.
But with the rise of the Internet and the rise of AI and social media
and all the things that are not only distractions
but so many answers from so many different way places,
what advice would you give to fathers to try to find the right answers
and maybe, let's say, leadership or something,
you know, that would help their family, that guides them in the right way
to find, you know, whatever room they're trying to be in, so to speak.
I don't know if I understand the question just so I'm sorry.
So so with with a with so many answers out there right now,
my question would be, you know, from your program, what is something
that they can use to find the right answers
in leading their family in the right direction?
I guess the best way to ask that.
Okay.
So that's so not not like the answer to this question would not be
listen to the present fathers. But
I they
listen to that.
That's actually the only answer. Okay. So. Right.
I mean, I wanted to correct, like and subscribe.
Share the video. Thanks. Right.
And that's what I have to say about that.
I'm sorry.
I feel like I'm struggling to to serve you well here, man.
I don't know if I'm getting it.
We live in like the age of information overload, I think is what you're
trying to. Yeah, right.
And so, you know, I guess if I'm reading into this, John, like.
Like what?
What about your program?
Is cutting through all of that and kind of.
Okay, what in the world I'm sorry. That's what.
Yes, I think that's what Is that what you're asking?
Just.
Yeah, because there's so many different people
who are experts on leadership, right? Yeah.
You see, like not only your family or how to be more successful in life.
You know, I was going to say, like,
obviously, just follow Andrew today and you'll be good to go.
Okay.
So yeah, so what is that like the secret sauce?
And this is real deep.
The secret sauce for me, the foundation really is the Bible.
Like, that's my Sunday school answer and it's the right answer.
But seriously, I mean, I approach the those verses
and I go, This must mean what it plainly says instead of,
Well, that was written to a time and a people and a place for a reason.
Yeah, like the whole Bible and also inspired by the Holy Spirit for us.
And it's profitable for us.
So I take that approach.
I don't do biblical gymnastics to get out of what's plainly spoken of.
All of this is good or Ephesians five is good. What you got, though?
You got to understand.
Okay, Diana, we're at the temple and the prostitution.
So what what it was was okay, see at the Council of Crimea
when they did the thing with the people in the church fathers.
Now would it what you find is like
like you lost me I it's funny how they gloss
over the verse about let your yes mean yes and you're no me no.
Now see well but that's different to their brother George.
So let me explain to you why you know why
all of my beliefs run countercultural except for this one vein.
Just culture totally loves what I have to believe.
Like Christians.
Are you nervous, by the way,
when you're in total agreement with what the culture would teach on something?
But that is the answer is I go, First of all, to be masculine is something.
To be feminine is something They're both a glory, a glory and a joy.
God calls them both good.
So we want the polarity that the Lord wants oceans and deserts,
masculine and feminine, light and dark, hot and cold.
These things are good and we're being robbed.
So we also take the assumption that it's
good to be manly, it's good to be masculine, it's good to lead,
and that a man can lead in a way where everybody wins.
So that's the validation.
Without that in I am just another frickin voice.
Like, who cares?
You know, like, well, this guy says it that way, or This guy says it that way.
Like, well, if they're getting anything right, it's because they're teaching
biblical principle whether or not they're using chapter and verse is irrelevant.
If they're getting beautiful and glorious fruit, there's heathens who do that.
There are there's there's people in the manosphere
who do an excellent job, who do a better job than pastors
do when it comes to teaching on marriage and what it should look like.
And they think that we came from a mud puddle.
You know, they think we came from monkeys. It crawled out of it.
No, no, they came from bunnies.
Who came from
I don't know what the first critter was that crawled out of that puddle.
They got hit by lightning in Neverland forever ago,
but I mean, these guys think
we're just a bunch of animals out here humping each other,
and they're still getting gender dynamics more biblical than a lot of the churches.
But the answer is the word.
The answer is like it's there.
And once you see it, you can't unsee it.
But forever I couldn't see it forever.
I'm just like, I wish the Bible was more plain.
I wish there was more here.
And then as I started going that journey, I couldn't see it anymore.
I'm like, Look at this.
Look at this. It was here. I was in denial.
I was raised in I was raised in a baptized in the waters of feminism,
not with anyone taking a deliberate action, godly parents.
And at the same time, here I am with the same
misunderstandings with a wife who has the same misunderstandings.
And any of this language
becomes triggering to all of us because we make false assumptions.
So do you mind if I get a little bit personal?
And can you
can you talk about just in your own family,
even before you were kind of running the program and working with others,
you know how drastically different things are for you?
And then I guess you could also go into how you've seen
that replicated with all the men you've worked with.
Yeah.
Oh, man, I wish in our lives in here she would
she would be the better one to answer it because she has a much better memory
than me.
But as far as the the turnaround, it was like I said, it wasn't
so much that our marriage was at a two and then it went to a ten.
It was at a78.
And then it went to, you know, again like 500.
I didn't know what I didn't know.
So we certainly got out of the hole.
We're just, you know, we're just partners.
We're just life partners. I happen to have a penis.
You happen to have a vagina.
But that's the only difference between us.
Everything else is just preferences.
So we certainly got away from that nonsense.
And I learned how to be the man which foundationally is responsibility.
And I learned what that look like.
But the turnaround really is just the joy
and the depths of polarity, the like.
I talk to you guys about this in the voyage recently, George, I said,
Man, if there is a downside
to polarity between husband and wife, I haven't found it yet.
And I will, I will say if I find one, but I haven't.
The more extreme Natalie and I get and masculinity and femininity,
the more I want, the more I'm like, This is amazing.
I feel like a king.
And Natalie feels like she's loved and cherished and taken care of.
And she's soft and she's feminine and
the guys in the chat or I shouldn't have looked.
I looked at the wrong time.
So I mean,
the personal turnaround stuff like we had our we had our
our bickering is where I was starting in the beginning, George, to learn things.
But I had no wisdom. I had no guidance with any of it.
I just knew I was learning something and I'm excited about it.
And when I know something's right, I'm all in, I'm all in,
and I will tell you about it until you believe.
And that can be with anything big or small, important or not important.
So I didn't have any wisdom to navigate.
I'm just like, Baby, I'm learning this. I'm seeing this.
And look, I mean, this verse plainly says, and how could we not?
And this one too. And this one too. And this one too.
And this will do it. Oh, yeah.
All of these are New Testament,
so you can throw out that argument that's coming next.
Like, well, God was a different God in the Old Testament, which is a lie.
But anyway, like all this is here.
And then of course, yeah, her responses were all the trained responses.
Well, you know, I just I just, you know, But we're equal like.
Yes, we're equal in value and worth, and our roles are different.
I will be having zero babies throughout this marriage, I guarantee you.
But what I will
do is I will take ownership and I'll take responsibility.
A wife is afraid a lot of times that she's going to lose,
that she's afraid that he'll lead
exclusively, exclusively with the lack of authority, which is why.
And second, Peter first, Peter, Second, Peter, First, Peter.
Chapter two.
Somebody check me on.
That is why he tells wives you can be like
Sarah, who you know, forgive, Forget calling Abraham Lord, like,
I don't know any wife who's ready for that.
But if you don't fear anything, that is frightening
because it's a woman's fears that causes her to take action.
So I'm afraid of this thing.
So I'm going to control this thing.
I'm afraid you're going to do something wrong with the finances.
So I've got the finances and we go, okay, maybe you're better at that stuff
anyway, says Melvyn, who doesn't want to have
the responsibility of keeping track of the bills.
So we had all that.
Natalie ran the finances and I hid behind.
She's better at that.
It's literally addition and subtraction, you know, It's not.
Calculus is literally addition and subtraction.
But Natalie's better with all that, but she's got to feel the pressure of it all.
So that was something that changed.
It was just it wasn't one thing. It was everything.
And as I kept finding, I'm like, this is pressure.
This isn't the right pressure either.
There's a a feminine glory, there's a feminine strength,
but the feminine strength doesn't try to be masculine.
It really is a feminine glory.
And she's been able to walk in that more fully.
She lives a life of surrender now, and she goes, I'm loved.
I have a head, I have a covering, which is exactly what men can do.
Of course, with the Lord.
The Lord is my shepherd.
I'm so glad I'm not the top of the food chain.
I love that about especially,
let's touch on the responsibility a little bit more because a lot of guys,
they they almost treat their wives like and you hear a lot of women say this,
but they'll say that they all mistreat their wives like moms like that.
They're literally doing everything under the house
and the dad or the husbands just like, well, I mean, it's their job.
So, again, shirking the responsibility.
So I was guilty of this in some aspects, like with the finances.
And then I understood, just like you said, that this was a burden.
And not only that, but when I give that to her,
I have absolutely no idea what's going on.
I have no way to predict and protect, and I have no way to control
the narrative whatsoever.
So me being involved and learning and and working
with her in the finances allowed me to just take it over.
Like I just completely took over our finances.
And now she's, like, are we good, honey?
I said, Hey, we're great,
you know, And if, if, if it's not as hey, let's cut back
a little bit for a couple of weeks X this X that, you know, and then we're great
and we've, you know, for 15 years we've been we've been flawless.
And so and that's like you said, when you when you take that responsibility.
Yes, it is a weight, but it's a good way and it's just like any other weight
training you become, it becomes like you're you're more structured.
The strength,
the power is there.
And then you're you're just able to lift it.
And it's not a burden to you.
And, you know, your wife.
It was a burden.
It was I was just like you said,
it was more anxiety, something else to worry about.
On top of being in nurture for the kids.
So when she's focused on that, she can't focus on the kids
or she can't focus on, you know, anything that she wants
or strives for, it's it's strictly on what can I do to serve my family?
And then it's just that's all she does serve.
There's nothing outside of that.
And so the responsible is such an important thing.
Can you give some of these guys listening maybe just a couple ideas
of of ways they can start improving in the responsibility like
the way I describe it
is there's this huge pile of debris
and there's big rocks, there's huge
chunks in it, there's smaller rocks and there's sand.
The thing that you need to do is you need to go move the big rocks.
That's what you're built for. That's what you're made for.
So start by identifying what are the biggest rocks,
what are the things that it would just be.
It's just overwhelming to your wife.
You know, I'm thinking about the guy who their 16 year old.
No 18 year old
was still sleeping in their bed.
A special needs son.
And that was just the kind of thing that we tried.
We would always find the we Hey, babe, let's try to do this.
Let's try to do that.
They always want to lump her in, make her responsible
and make her accountable instead of let her be your helper.
But you were the guy.
You're the point man. And you feel that pressure.
You feel like if it doesn't happen, it's because you failed.
Don't that doesn't make you a failure.
Identity and crisis makes you secure.
So you're not worried about failing at anything.
Even if you fail out of failure, your child with your love dearly as a son.
But that
guy who for 18 years is like, Yeah, we can't get him out of our bed.
And then by the time he finished
12 weeks in the family captain, his son was out in his room and.
He and his wife were able to make love again
because their 18 year old son is no longer in their bedroom.
You know, it's it's identifying what is the thing that's just burdensome
to her?
What is the thing that's burdensome to the household?
For some guys, it is the budget for John Michael.
That was a that was a big first step for us because, like,
I mean, I wasn't like just handing her $100,000 every month either.
Like, hey, whatever, however you figure it out,
that wouldn't have been that much pressure.
But we were in a very, very difficult season financially.
Whose responsibility is that?
Well, everybody's a team. Nice try, Melvin.
Men are primarily men are the responsible one to provide for their households.
If any one of us ends up homeless in a box on the side of the road,
nobody's going to look at our wife and go, Dang, she really dropped the ball there.
Who are they looking at and why?
Because it's right.
That is the role of a man.
We are a protector provider and a leader.
This is what we are made for, is what we're built for.
So as you look
around, you just keep asking what's best and what's next.
What's the big rock?
Your wife can move sand, your kids can move sand in smaller rocks.
Well, I just want to be helpful.
I appreciate you being helpful, but you don't want
the president of the United States coming to cut your grass, do you?
I don't. I'm going, Joe.
First of all, I don't I can't even finish a sentence. So
but I'd prefer you can serve me best by leading me.
Well, that's what loving leadership does.
That's the only way I'm ever okay with using the phrase servant leader,
because usually it's just code for family butler.
But if we mean servant leader, if we actually met and no one does,
but if we actually met, I will serve you with leadership.
George Washington served his troops by leading.
Well, you know, the president should serve the nation by leading well,
not by I'm going to come to every American's home
and wash dishes to show you almost certainly like, bro, you're an idiot.
Get back to the White House government.
You know, husband's like, oh, baby, can I This can have that kind
of this kind of that. There's a time and a place for all that.
But most guys have been brainwashed into that is leadership, homie.
No, it's not
that it's not it's mostly servitude and it's mostly people pleasing
and it's mostly cowardice.
So you've got to identify in your own household.
For me, the first step was the budget.
Another thing could just be the discipline of the kids.
Do the children not honor mom when she speaks
like Baba, You've got to solve it.
And I don't mean just snap on them tonight.
I'm talking systematically.
Work weed this out of your household and out of your children for their good,
for your wife's, good for everybody's good.
You know, like it's it's screen time, you know, man,
my wife's addicted to her phone.
How do I get her off her phone? Buddy?
Be more interesting than her phone.
What is Instagram giving her that you're not like?
It all depends on what you can identify as the big rock and the big thing.
Like what's the next thing.
And it's if you look at the whole pile, you get overwhelmed.
You just go, I'm going to move that frickin rock.
It's going to be big.
But eventually you start moving all this stuff
in, the water starts trickling through and you go, hoo hoo hoo hoo.
And the more time goes by, more water starts flowing, and eventually,
like the river is fully unlocked,
there's everything's flourishing, everything's green.
And if this sounds idealistic again, like this is why I don't talk this way
that much, because I just don't think people believe it.
I don't think people enough people have seen it.
I don't think there are enough examples of it.
I don't think there are enough marriages that people go,
sign me up for that.
But we should and we've got to start somewhere.
Did I answer you, Brandon, or do you? Yes.
The distinctions, especially with the rocks, was was flawless.
And I love that.
And that's something that I'll be thinking on for a while. So.
Great, great job for sure.
That's that I think that's something it's also code Brandon to lift
heavier weights, get ready to do even less, bro.
That's right.
You know, that's a really helpful analogy.
I like I like thinking about that
because sometimes I'll get caught in the nitty gritty
and that it's hard to lead when you're so focused on little details.
So get to the big rocks first and then worry about the details.
I like that.
I'll give an example of me being a
me. Being a melvin who hid behind Natalie
is a really interesting example.
So for the majority of our marriage,
I didn't even know how to run the dishwasher.
And I've come to find out.
It's like, what if the simplest thing is to run?
I still can't.
I mean, in my defense, our washer dryer I think are complicated,
but I can't really run either of them, and I never do.
But here's my point.
Early in our marriage didn't do any of that stuff.
But it wasn't.
It wasn't because I was doing anything else.
It wasn't because I was moving big rocks.
It was because I was doing nothing.
I went to work. Hey, I'm providing.
Okay. You're welcome.
You know, now that was it.
So I didn't do anything.
Whereas now I still hardly ever do any, like, household kind of tasks.
But I'm lifting Dave frickin rocks all the freaking time.
And and Natalie sees that, and she's grateful and she's the beneficiary of it.
Now. I do know how to load the dishwasher.
Now. I regularly participate in stuff like I'll grab the broom in the kitchen.
I'm helping Melvin, who's listening right now, like up at this guy.
Natalie's to the water heater right now in Melvin's mind,
you know, she's not actually, not.
She gets a coupon once a week to leave the house.
She can go wherever she wants.
As long as it's only 5 minutes away.
You know, I'm a very angular.
You'll find it anyway, so it's like I still don't do
that much of, like, the little things.
But, dude, I'm moving big rocks, like, nonstop.
When I see a big rock, I'm like, I'm killing it. That's mine.
Yeah.
No, I mean, the studies are fascinating.
There's tons of psychological studies that show that the more chores
men do, typically, the less sex they have.
And it's it's a very interesting. It's kind of the opposite, right?
We're told if you help out a lot that you know that that will happen.
It does not It does not play out that way.
So we're seeing 60, 70% of college graduates, doctors,
lawyers are all female.
Now, you have women that are just dominating men in terms of
making money, in terms of leadership, all these things.
So a lot of men are get me in the situation where their wives
outearn them or their wives are very powerful at work.
And so I'm curious how that dynamic works in the home.
Do you feel like a woman who is very powerful and leads a Fortune 500 company
and makes all the money while the man stays home can be in a situation
where the man is still the captain in that in that scenario?
Yeah. 1,000%. Yes.
He almost never is from day one because they both fell into that dynamic.
An accident like she's used to, or even a schoolteacher.
She doesn't even have to have a powerful position.
But if she's used to, like commanding all day long.
Hey, you, stop.
Hey, you. This.
She's got to the ship at school.
She comes home.
It's a habit.
It's not even necessarily sinister.
It's not even necessarily
like the evil feminist, which it's none of that and do it to.
Was that to. We do it to men?
Yeah, exactly.
It's it's hard to separate work if you're if you're a boss at work,
it's hard to come home and not snap to what works at work, you know?
Right, Right. Yeah.
Yeah.
George the military, you know,
I tell this man to go and he goes until his men come, he comes.
I tell my wife and daughter and they go,
You hurt my feelings about what they're like.
Yeah.
No, I put them to sleep at work,
and then I come home and I knock my kid out with gas.
You know, it's.
I think it's wrong, you know, It's just gets a bad father.
Not so well behaved, dude.
That's right. It's like a baby. It's
daddy.
Mommy needs the most time.
Like the wine moms guest
coming 60 minutes on Dustin someday.
He's like hairspray.
Does this know like chloroform?
For those who can't tell, this is what's called humor. It's
obviously really still on this podcast.
I told you, I continue at 11:00.
You know, you touched on something that was such true,
like my wife, the second grade school teacher.
And so she's like, she just boom, boom, boom.
You know, she she structures the crap out of everything.
And she's she's very forceful and very authoritative.
And then she came home, you know, the first few years of
she was trying it, I said, Honey, I'm not one of your kids at school.
You need to slow that, slow that down.
Back it up a little bit.
Let's let's talk through this.
And we have to work through when you get that with work, you got to turn that off,
you know, and over, I'd say probably a year and a half.
Man, we got it.
We got it nailed and it made it so much better.
But you have to be able to identify that.
And that's such a good point, is that it really can lead off from work.
You have to be able to identify it and recognize this is irritating.
This is brother.
There's a word for it. It's disrespectful.
You're allowed to say it out loud.
You feel it, you should say it.
You don't have to.
You don't have to come guns blazing with her and go, You're disrespecting me.
Like, in all fairness to her. What the heck.
We've been doing this for a decade, and all of a sudden tonight I'm disrespectful.
So I should look at the chart, look at the charts.
I won't look at the chart any more.
Highly professional here tonight.
I thought that when I said it. No,
that's not so.
Oh, okay.
Deep breath, everyone.
We got this, huh?
Back in here.
A wife at home who's used to running everything else.
What do you do?
How can you handle that?
Yes, absolutely.
You can have the polarity in your marriage.
She can come in and go
by. I'm no longer the keeper.
I'm being kept like I have someone who cares for me.
I'm so thankful to come in rest from what I've been experiencing today
and now I know I have a husband.
I know I'm entering the greenhouse and he is the greenhouse.
He is the one who sheltering from the storm all day.
I had to be whatever, boss babe, which it's a whole different conversation
of can you and should you still be feminine at work as a woman?
And the answer is yes, a million times yes.
But I don't coach women. So
back to the bro.
You've got to identify it. And then you got the curt.
You got to have the courage to start standing up to it.
Which, by the way, almost always guys think my wife won't follow me.
Brother, family leadership starts with for most guys, stop
following, forget leading, forget leading.
We'll get to that.
But step one for many guys is stop following.
It's simple stuff. It's the little end.
It's the big It's when she says, Oh, park here, I'm not parking there.
Why don't you park here?
Because I didn't want to.
I love you.
Everything's gonna be okay.
Like, I don't give answers.
I don't give explanations. Why?
Because I'm a grown man and I respect myself too much.
And you might not.
I can't make you. It's not control.
It's not control.
But it is a fence.
And you're going to start running into this fence.
I'm not going to impale you on it, but you will run into it many times.
You know, take this fence down I go, I won't.
I won't.
You know, or all the little commands that come, I do it.
Load the dishwasher like this.
I load it how I want it to load it, baby girl, I got it.
I've been doing your program on that example.
I want full details like this or what? You know.
And I was just like, How about you asked me first?
And it's a great line.
You can ask me again. You're right.
You're right. Honey, can you can you pull that?
I'd love to be happy.
Yeah. I don't care if you know something I learned.
I mean, it's little, but.
And I realized how often I would just not say anything because I would never.
If I treated her like that, it'd be met with instant rebuttal.
You know what I mean? Exactly.
That's like, what A mom.
It's just. It's basic stuff that we just take for granted nowadays.
Or it's like it's simple respect.
That should go both ways. It's not.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Well, she she's going to feel my care.
She's going to feel tenderness so she can ask me a kind of a simple question.
Baby, can I ask you something every whenever you this.
Could you please this?
And if I can like. Yeah, I don't care.
Like, it doesn't matter to me, but I don't want her leading ever.
I always want to be leading.
When Natalie leads it all, I realize, first of all, I'm inspecting.
Did I fail here?
Like, did I create a vacuum for her to step into?
And then if I go, I didn't.
This is like a unique scenario and she's just stepping in the leadership
rather than a genuine surrender.
And of course, George knows we talk about this a lot in the voyage.
The voyage, by the way, is like the when you graduate,
when you become an alumni, you can go to the voyage.
But we talk a lot about how
to guide your wife into her emotions, which most men want to run away from.
Most men are deliberately always masculine izing their wives.
What are you saying?
Cut to the chase, brother.
You were destroying the feminine heart.
You were hardening a woman and you're ruining her soul as opposed to baby.
Tell me what you're feeling. I feel like you're a jerk.
That's not a feeling, baby. That's an accusation.
You notice what she did there?
She didn't actually give a feeling. A feeling is. I feel hurt.
What did that require? Vulnerability.
What does that require? Surrender.
Or is there also require trust?
She didn't have that.
So she jumps to I want the thing I want.
This is why when we're driving down the road,
she doesn't say I'm frightened, which is of course, if she said that my foot
is instantly coming off the gas and moving to the break,
but when she says, slow down, you're driving like an idiot, I'm going,
Oh, I am actually the greatest driver in the world
and I can go 30 miles an hour faster, you know, like, that's my ego.
Of course, that would be the wrong response, but hers was as well.
Whereas counselor Melvin is going to give her the pass or Pastor
Melvin is going to give her the pass.
Jan-Michael You should have slowed down because she was afraid.
Actually, she should have just said, I'm scared.
In which case loving husband goes, Oh, baby, I don't want you to be afraid.
So right down
now, can she use her feelings and weaponize them
and try and control the outcomes?
She could certainly try to.
But again, like to my Christian sisters, that's where I say,
Welcome to submission, my sister.
It's surrender. It's not a trick.
It's not a way to get it's not a subtle way.
It's not a feminine way to then control your husband.
It's actual surrender.
It's an actual giving up of the outcome, putting it in his hands,
and then he chooses what to do.
What if he doesn't do what I want?
Welcome to submission, my sister.
I don't know, I.
I don't know how you got to 40 years old and didn't ever know this. You.
What did you think it was like?
He has a head.
Do you trust in his head?
Yeah, I trust the Lord. I just. You don't.
And I get it. It's. I have flesh. You have flesh?
I'm not mad at you, but I'm mad for you because you have been robbed of peace.
You've been robbed of of of surrender.
You've been robbed of joy, you've been robbed of rest.
And you've also robbed yourself because of your fears.
You fear many things that are frightening and therefore you seek to control.
But if you will walk in surrender.
Well, if I don't pay the bills, I'll let the power go out.
Honey, Let it go out.
Let that man feel the weight of his consequence.
Your kids are going to starve and you all are going to freeze to death.
Let him feel his weight.
And I'm talking to women. Women are listening.
Oh, we're
actually our viewers, I think, are women, so.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. That's for about 40, 50%, actually.
But what's sad about that is that a woman will not let her husband lead
and won't be submissive to her husband, but she'll turn around and go to work
and she'll be submissive and let a man that she doesn't love
or know that just gives her a paycheck later, I'll help him in his mission.
I'll I'll give my wife to him.
I'll give 40 hours to him in his mission so he can buy his third house.
But when I come home, I need some help around here.
You know, It's like what happened to be in his helper.
Now, I'm not going to serve No, man.
Yeah, except that you are.
Yeah.
You're serving, master. It's a switch. One.
That's interesting. Yeah.
So what details specific? What is.
What does your day look like?
If you're.
You said you're not doing chores, you're not, you know,
kind of being the Melbourne in that sense. So are you educating the kids?
Are you working on your programs?
What does the day look like for you in that sense?
So full time I'm doing the family captain.
I'm also a pastor, so we plan our church
two and a half years ago.
So those two roles are really significant and beyond that.
But I mean, I'm having breakfast, lunch and dinner with Natalie and the boys.
This is the office that I'm in here.
So I'm at the house and I'm with them and I'm around them, know I go to work out.
They'll be on that.
I'm working with my guys and coaching my clients, running the business and,
you know, continue and do what I can, break away from work.
I can do things if I hear that
I need the boys need more strength than she's got.
I'm certainly all a part of that.
But Natalie runs the household.
She runs the the dynamics of their day.
She runs the is she she oversees all that.
That is authority delegated to her.
So she has tons of authority that I've delegated to her.
And like, we didn't do that in the formal way, which is obvious.
She's godly, she's capable, she's wise, she's wonderful,
she's intelligent, she's a college grad, I'm a college dropout.
So all that like she can do all the things.
And I thank God for her because she's amazing, but
she and I have such unity that sorry, I'm just not used to.
How you running a successful business without a college degree? I just.
I can't
say dead in the gutter like I.
You're not homeless, okay?
Not strange.
I don't know when that happens, but that counselor assured me it was coming.
Good.
Oh, and, yeah, I.
Yeah, I just going through your program,
my eyes are open to so much that we
really, you know, we were taught wrong,
and most of it came from the church, which is actually the most
frustrating thing about it, that, you know, I grew up in the church
and been taught all these things, saw it in my own family dynamics.
And to your point earlier, there's there's a lot of secular sources
that are getting it more right than the church.
That's a problem that needs to change today.
You know, if you needed to change 30 years ago.
But I'm encouraged, though, because I see more and more I'm seeing more
and more of this kind of conversation happening in the body of Christ.
I'm seeing more and more ministries.
I'm seeing more and more coaches.
I'd like just any time I hear the conversations, I'm
just like, yes, if they're not against us, they're for us.
And and we can we'll take all the progress we can get with it.
Yeah.
So I think that kind of jumps well into,
you know, how your influence
has grown and the amount of people that you're working with has grown.
Um, you're actually hosting a conference coming up.
You want to talk about that a little bit and
what that all will entail.
Have Yemen.
So in Nashville in September, 51
days as of this moment,
September 14, 15 and 16,
we're going to have Ryan Frederick.
Oh, there it is right there on Eventbrite.
So you go to Eventbrite
and if you just search the family captain on Eventbrite, you'll find it.
But Ryan Frederick is going to join us.
He is of fierce marriage.
So he and his wife Selena, they've been in the marriage ministry game
for a long time now and they're faithful believers,
God honoring Christians and a lot of wisdom there.
Dylan Davis, he is an alumni of the family Captain Elite,
and he's also the host pastor for the event.
He's going to be speaking at the conference as well.
And we're going to have a good time.
And so many of the guys in the family,
Captain Elite, have already signed up and are going to be there.
But this is not just an alumni conference.
This is definitely a come on. Come on.
Like even your brother in law
who doesn't know anything about anything but loves the Lord
and he's married, then he should be there and he'll go, Oh, wow,
I hadn't thought about this that way. Okay, that's different.
I thought anybody who believe that verse,
you know, hated women like, Oh, actually not men.
They're talking about loving their wives. Well,
so we're going to have practical stuff.
We're going to have encouraging stuff.
And then, of course, the fellowship that goes into the Brotherhood
when we're when we're face to face there, we're going to have some
some real quality time, which we need.
I'm looking forward to it.
I will see you there.
And maybe I can rope some of these guys into making a quick little trip to.
I think Bran is going to be in Florida having vacation,
you know, I guess I can make it.
And I'm I'm upset about it, man.
I was like, please don't be this week.
Please tell me this weekend said, as I said, I was like, it's a week now.
So it's okay.
I will be there the following year alone.
I forgive you and I'll try.
I think this is actually
dovetails really well into an aspect that we've kind of touched on,
but maybe not really
from the lens of why it's so important as a leader of your family is to
you can't just lead on your own and you've got to have,
you know, brotherhood and fellowship.
So, you know, for me, it's not just the guys on the podcast, it's the voyage.
There's so many times where I'm struggling with something or I need some, you know,
input from someone and it's an older, wiser,
maybe not older, a wiser man than me and gives that that guidance and helps me
either, you know, get out of my own anger or frustration
and look at things from a different light and
and then I can lead my family better because of it.
So can you touch on from your perspective how critical that is and
you know, where
where having that around you makes you a better leader.
It's not just.
Yeah, shouldering the world on your own, right?
Well, I mean, it's because headship is a thing,
you know, just like parents, the mothers as well.
Ladies, you know, we don't just dump everything on our kids.
If we're a loving parent, we don't go. You know what?
I need you to be my friend right now.
I That's selfish.
There's a degree where we're trying to help them grow up.
So there's a there's an appropriate amount of something to share with them.
But we can't heal.
Like, I don't know how we're going to pay these next bills
unless you're turning it into a let's pray
and turn to the Lord and watch a miracle, that'd be a good thing.
And so parents know not to do that.
A loving husband should trust his wife completely.
But John Michael, my habit was to overshare.
So this was a lesson that I had to learn.
Like that doesn't serve Natalee well. Well, I'm just being open.
And I was I've been trained that I've got to communicate.
Yeah, but look at the fruit, stupid.
This is not a blessing to your wife.
I know feminism told you to say everything because you all are equal and same,
but you're not the same so lovingly.
Take more burden on yourself.
But then guys go.
I guess I'll just keep it to myself.
No, brother, No.
Two points. Here. You have a head.
His name is Jesus, Ladies.
Of course you have the Lord Jesus Christ as well.
Your husband's not your high priest.
So again, listen to what I say, not what I don't say.
But then to my brothers, I'd also say and.
And brotherhood. You need peers.
So we certainly need somebody up the chain of command.
And I have men in my life like that.
My dad is up the chain of command, my pastor.
So the I call my pastor, you know, I'm not in his church, but
he's he's one that's checking on my soul regularly.
And I have plenty of men who I guiding them
and leading them and coaching them and blessing them.
But I think the hardest piece to find is the peers, guys
who are with you in multiple ways, guys who can be a bro,
not just the wisdom, not just the maturity in the word,
but also wit in that in whatever season of life you're in.
But you need that. You need somebody who can relate.
You need somebody can go, Hey, I feel you.
I'm strong today so you can be weak, like you can be feminine and you can vent,
you can, you can gush, you know, and then I can correct
and be like, Hey, man, all right, Like, now let me remind you what's true.
Let's get back on track.
You know, whatever's needed, however I can guide you.
But it's a it's an epidemic that's missing.
Most men have no friends.
Most men are very closed off.
But, George, like you said, there's such a value
in being having those fears.
And then there's moments where you are the small fish in the big pond
where you're outclassed, where you're outmanned,
and you should thank God for it, where it crushes the ego,
where somebody has got the word for you and you're like, Oh, I needed that.
I knew that, but just don't receive that because that's a gift.
That's a blessing. Today it's their turn.
Maybe next time it's yours.
But we were meant and built for fellowship.
It's biblical.
It's good. It's not.
It's not normal for our modern day, but, man, we feel it.
And when you get in that kind of fellowship,
when you get that peer to peer, that brother, you can lean on
who I mean, you see, like you get glimpses of it in the world.
You see David and Jonathan, you just like, Man, that is deep stuff.
Yeah.
Can can a man lean on and vent to his his female friend?
What's. What's that look like?
No, I don't believe men should have female friends.
I don't want female friends.
Now, you know, there's women in my church being like, aren't we friends about.
Yes, we're friends, but not like they're thinking, you know,
like, I can I could be more friends with a dude halfway across the world
than I could with a woman who lives next door.
And if I can be good friends with a female,
somebody off in their polarity, her or me or both of us,
because something that something's off here and
why am I so comfortable in the feminine environment?
Why do I understand it?
It's good to understand it, but I need to be leading her out of it
in it.
But if I'm walking in masculinity, that creates the polarity
and by the way, polarity of course, is going to increase attraction.
So if there's zero risk of attraction, then there is zero polarity happening.
So this is you know, there's a lot that could be said here.
Well, I guess all women are threats now. That's nonsense.
We reject that stupidity.
Women are not threatening or anything like that.
But I just like I don't want to hang out with women.
I don't relate to women like because I'm not a woman, because I believe that
there's much more to gender than what's between our legs or what's on our chest.
There's so much more.
It's you have to be an evolutionary you have to have an evolutionary
perspective to take the to the this modern
quasi Christian perspective that says, can't we all just get along?
Or so we can certainly get along.
And I care for the women in my life, but any women friends that I have,
it's to the context of them. And as a pastor,
even the women of my church like I love them as their pastor.
But I'm never going to be like like I want to hang out with them.
And it's not because I'm attracted to them or anything
like that, but I'm just like, You're not a bro. How?
Why would I even want to?
I it's a foreign concept
statement.
And then a question statement is, you know, only another man knows
the serpentine passages of your heart.
Even your wife won't understand it in the same way.
That's why brotherhood is so valuable.
Question Talking about, you know, the lack of polarity,
I've heard you talk a lot about, you know, don't mask in a masculine eyes
your wife, you know, don't treat her like a bro, which we do a lot.
Can you talk about what that looks like and why that's so bad
in your marriage?
Yeah.
How typical, how easily guys are conditioned to do that.
Yeah, if you're with logic, that kind of stuff, you know?
Exactly.
Yeah. It's where.
It's where I'm making her defend herself.
To me, I don't ever want Natalie to have to defend herself To me,
I want Natalie to feel super safe and super secure.
So when she says something doesn't make sense,
if I want clarity, I can see clarity on it.
But we're never at war.
She's never my opponent.
I'm always the one caring for her.
If there's something I hear that I don't like,
there's a way I can bring correction to that with gentleness.
There's a way I can bring correction that
again, like husbands love wives do not be harsh with them.
Why are all the commands to husbands to love their wives
and all the commands to wives or to submit in respect to their husbands?
What's because this is our temptations to sin against in that way,
And this is also our design.
We're built for this, but as men, we get frustrated.
We treat women like flawed men, and women treat men like flawed women
like you got to get straight. You need to be more feminine.
Actually, no, I just need to be more gentle with you.
I don't need to be feminine.
I need to be understanding.
So it goes to that point, George, of not encouraging her emotions
like we re recoil and all that
she's doing the girl thing.
And instead of being being the pillar,
the pillar that she can rest on
and that she can trust in and say, I'm going to be strong
and I'm going to be here, I love you, baby.
I'm sorry.
This doesn't mean you can't fix stuff.
So I don't accept that analogy either.
Just like sometimes she doesn't need you to fix stuff.
She just needs listen and learn how to do it all.
I'm going to listen first, though.
I'm going to be gentle and caring and figure out what was really needed here.
And that's where a brother needs wisdom because I just want to fix the thing.
Hey, homey.
Sometimes she just needed to get tears out.
You did fix it, buddy.
Well done, Captain.
You fixed it. She needed to cry.
It's been a and she just needed to cry about nothing.
And you loved her.
And you hugged her and you kissed her.
And you said, Oh, baby, I got you.
I got you. And God's got us.
I still want to fix the thing.
But what you did, you just fixed it.
That was it. The other thing isn't the thing.
It's just that her internal world was worked up.
But the more we masculine as our wives are like, What about this?
Or Well, then why did Becky say that?
Well, you need a texture and tell it this like, as heavy.
That's harsh.
That's. That's a lot of planning.
And the same way when we converse with her, I debate with Natalie
like Natalie Smart.
Natalie's capable.
Natalie's a thinker, all the things, yada, yada, yada.
My wife is better than everybody and every listener and every lady listening.
My wife surpasses them all.
Actually, truly, completely.
And I treat her like a woman.
And I don't want her to debate me.
I don't want her to feel pressure for me.
And I want to find ways to be gentle with her but still.
Leader.
I don't know, George.
You got you got good insights here.
What are your thoughts?
Yeah, I there's something that I kind of realized
going through the program was
it's a unique gift
that I have that only I can give my wife to in those moments, like you said.
Right.
Maybe she just needed to cry.
And that's how you fix it
if I'm providing that to her, you know, that is something
that I'm providing to my wife that she can't really get anywhere else.
Well, or shouldn't, you know.
So in many ways,
men needs a desire to to provide that
because it's it's strengthening your relationship
way beyond the physical realm.
Right. It's it's a spiritual connection
that's going to bear fruit for a long time.
So that was a big unlock for me going through it.
That's a go ahead. Yeah.
I just thought
I think a lot of what's happening with men who masculine eyes, their wives
is that if we don't have any male friends, we're seeking male companionship.
And so we find it in our wives and it doesn't really work, right?
It feels empty.
So that that really clicked there for me,
that the reason we do that is because we don't have enough male companionship.
We don't have a male friend to talk to who understands us.
So we lay eyes on our wives that aren't.
Maybe that's not the right thing to do.
We need that sparring men. That's normal.
That's normal fellowship from anybody on the back that we can fight
and have a good time and make fun of each other's theology all in the process.
Like, yeah,
if you were in such an area with this or that and like, we're loving each other
and this happens in public school all the time,
you know, the little boys are picking on each other
and goofing off the friends
insulting each other, and the teacher's going, Y'all stop that.
You're being so mean to each other. It's like,
Can I go too far?
Or do they need do they need leadership?
Most definitely.
But most of the time it's it's dudes.
Being dudes like this is why men need their own sacred cultures
where they can talk the way they talk without women going, y'all stop it.
Or if women do say stop it, they need to be strong enough men to go.
Spoken like a woman, and then all the women go, Oh yeah, yeah, I said it.
So anyway, back to what I was saying.
Making of your shirt, you look Gabriel
and everybody and the guys
are still having fun together and they still love each other.
But you're right.
When I'm starved for that, then I can easily.
And I.
And I do this to Dustin where if I.
If I am. If. Because I like, I like to fight.
Not. Not not to be
quarrelsome, but man, I just need I need masculine culture around me.
And if I have none of that and the longer I go without it, the more I find myself
needing to start to boil over and not be aggressive with Natalie.
But I get intense about something else I can be, you know, am I babe?
And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And But I'll start to see it in her body and she'll start to
she's like, Babe, babe, like, you're intense.
I'm I, I know. I'm just. I'm not that easily.
I know we're married 16 years now, so we both understand the dynamics.
So she can tell me right away.
She's like, Hey, babe, this is too much for me.
And I'm like, Done, Shut down. Why?
Because I love my wife and I want to be gentle with her.
Well, you were being a major. I was not at all.
I was ranting about situation X, Y, Z, and yet it wasn't serving her well.
I was doing the things I was going to parent needed his child to be his friend.
Right? What do you mean?
What do you gain for doing that with your wife? Right.
You're you're making her uncomfortable with it.
And it's like it's not going to benefit you.
And I mean, last night I had to
we were on the back porch with friends and I was getting a little
you know, we were talking about some real stuff.
And I'm an animated guy and my wife was like,
Hey, honey,
you're kind of making me feel uncomfortable
When I was like, Okay, oh, yeah, I don't want to do that.
So like, totally right.
You know? I mean, she wasn't being mean. She was just being honest.
What did it mean in a way, to say that, praise God, I feel.
But it's a real example is like,
what do I gain from, like, making the point that way?
You know, in that moment, it I don't want to make my wife feel uncomfortable.
I want her to feel safe around me.
I just take it personally for all the ladies.
Listen, George's wife could have said, George, that's enough.
I have been disrespectful and un submissive.
But it says she said, I feel uncomfortable now.
What does that do? That's surrender.
That's submitted to George, who, of course, lovingly
reeled in by his own choice
because he loved his wife rather than her fearing
what is frightening saying, George, that's enough of that.
And yes, dear, because what are his options in that moment?
He's not going to continue, but he's also emasculated at the same time.
And no one wins.
But is that everybody wins.
She is just
beautifully and in a feminine Well,
I feel this And he goes, Oh, well, let me fix that.
Let me give you the gift of my leadership.
I love you.
Yeah.
And the other side of that coin, too, is
not just like masculine izing your wife, but it's also being over critical.
So like when you don't feel subconsciously or psychologically that you don't feel
like you're in control, what women do with their
their leadership, quote unquote, is they over criticize.
They try to find flaw and project in other people.
Right.
And so I feel like a lot of men don't just masculine their wife,
but they're also overly critical to their wife.
And they shirk that or they they they project that focus on on them as well
like it's they're afraid and Jones that point
he made about the 3 to 1 ratio, three positives to one negative was huge.
That's like that's such a good template to follow in all your relationships.
Absolutely. That's a great principle.
I'd argue 10 to 1, you know, like, you know, for your wife, man,
like pour on the praise on that woman, you know, real and and be real.
And if you can't yet,
we'll work
on that to be honest you're like what the heck, I like your left.
I also like your right to, you know,
your ears your love's so great now I'm in.
So maybe that's what Solomon was doing.
He's just like, your neck is so great.
It's like a tower.
Oh, man.
Dustin, I think, got a question.
I don't know if you got to ask it about, like, friend groups.
I think. But you wanted to.
Yeah.
It seems like we have these natural hierarchies
all throughout elementary school, middle school, high school, college,
where there's leaders, there's followers, sports groups, all that.
And then as we age, we kind of age out of these natural hierarchies.
And if we do have friendships, they tend to just be a drinking buddy
or someone that you might do an activity
with, but there's not necessarily the same group dynamics,
especially if someone's not in the church.
So when you see kind of an ideal friendship group,
what does that look like to you is that typically
have kind of a captain of the friends
and then or their followers or what's what does that dynamic look like to you?
Well, ideal friendship group.
I let you know when I'm in one. I want to see
a savior right now, man, right here.
And I'm just getting the when on.
So when I look so so right now I'm just a theorist.
But yeah I think I don't think the hierarchy vanishes,
but I think it gets harder to see and I think it's fine.
I think when you're younger, though, there's so much more ego involved.
So it's so much important to younger men and boys in particular, like I'm
the leader now. I'm the leader.
Like the whole club is nothing but the president.
And they don't even have a club.
But as long as they have a president, it's okay.
But I'm going to be the president next week.
And what do we do? Well, we have presidents. That's what we do.
That's why we exist.
So that we can each feel good about ourselves.
So as you get older, you know, men appreciate respect from one another.
So many men are starved for respect that I think we do a good job.
I see more and more men doing a good job respecting one another.
And this is why we have this language of I see you.
KING Let's go.
Killer Like what, is that that's the language of respect.
Like when we see each other in the gym, like when you see somebody,
you know, push it heavy, even if it's not a lot of plates
and you see he's strong, you like he finishes.
That said, you're like, Let's go, baby.
Like, what does that we we understand, like it's respect.
That's what we're giving.
So I think in a in a masculine friendship relationship
and you got a group of guys or anything like that,
it's not important necessarily so much who the president is, although
I think probably
intrinsically people can still feel where where rank is.
I know when men outranked me,
I was having a conversation recently about a man who outranks me.
But I say that with no problem with it.
Like it's a fact.
There's guys who are ranking well, in what way?
Like, I don't know. You just know.
Like I haven't quantified it.
I think it'd be dynamic to write, like if someone's a master mechanic,
I'm going to try and go toe to toe with all of his knowledge, you know?
I mean, Oh, man, teach me I'm a sponge.
Knock it up, you know?
Yeah.
So I think men are a little fluid
in that regard to where it it varies unlike the setting.
And I think that's a great thing too, is you want
a wider range of friends who have different skill
sets and things like that because it just betters you all.
If you wanted to humble yourself in the right moments
to learn from that guy who knows or you know, I mean, it's just I, I think
like once you're past your late twenties, age almost doesn't matter for men.
I mean,
I find myself in circles all the time where we're hanging out and it's the age
gap is 20, 30 years between the youngest and oldest in the group.
And everyone's like, buddy, buddy.
And talking about.
You know what they excel at and what they've learned.
And it's just kind of
everyone's getting better, you know?
It's not a new thing.
I don't think you have to pick a block, right?
We don't need a leader to to gain from that interaction.
And it makes you a much better man, George.
I mean, I see so many men
who will only hang out with other men that are within the same age range.
And I think they're really missing out by not having that wisdom from older men.
So I'm glad you have that.
Yeah.
And you got to remember to you know,
it's it's one of those things like
when egos not present, masculinity thrives.
So, I mean, if if, if you leave your ego at the door
and you have that group, that group of friends
or that hierarchy or whoever where you have respect for each other,
there's no ego there or an ego present, then you know, you're
you're going to have a thriving environment to learn from each other to
to gain a lot of knowledge from each other,
wisdom, share things, you know, all that stuff. So
yeah, masculine culture, they take turns submitting to one another,
but not in a measured way.
You just roll with it because there's a trust,
there's a care, there's a confrontation culture as well.
And masculine culture.
To back to Dustin's question, like what else needs to be present?
So there's there's this respect for everybody.
There's this, okay, it's time to submit to him today or just in this moment.
Hey, guys, when you do this, do that.
And he can give instruction on the hunting trip or he's given
clarification on the working on the engine
or even just picking what movie we're going to see tonight.
Like, you can roll with it
and you can complain about it, too,
and give him a hard time after the movie can be like, wow.
Woman KING Really? That was what we had to see now.
Yeah, That's why we Go see Barbie, man.
Why do we have to go see It was Marvin Heimer.
Firefly.
Why are you wearing a pink shirt? I'm not.
I watched the clouds where they drop a nuke on Barbie land.
That'd be.
That sounds interesting.
But the other point is the.
The the of confrontation, you know, whereas feminine culture.
Michael Foster says it well.
He says women,
women
complement one another and they don't mean it.
Men insult one another and they don't mean it.
And you know, all the ladies like that's not true.
We're like, Yes, it is.
Now, obviously, he's talking about a generalization,
not the godly woman who's not going to do that kind of behavior.
But as a generalization, but masculine culture, we're always course
correcting. Why?
Because our masculinity matters.
So this is why, you know,
will tease and poke at the things that are a little bit effeminate.
You've got enough points with the group.
We have enough capital with one another to know
that we're masculine men for whatever that social group is like,
you know, in some groups is probably way too low.
But in some groups it's like everybody here is a bro and that's okay.
So anybody takes a little step in the wrong direction.
And he is wearing a pink shirt like,
Oh man, like we're making fun of him forever now over the pink shirt.
Not that we care, but it's just like, why not?
Because it's fun.
So we'll take whatever potshots we can take or like in nice shirt.
Do they make them for men and
stuff that the baby get out, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever.
Like if something doesn't fit him well or he does his hair
in a new way, like, we just make fun of it.
He's like feeling good about himself today, and we're like, Oh, that's cute.
You're going to get frosted tips next week and, you know, like.
And of course, you're always into women.
This is super confusing.
Like I thought you said you respect each other like we do.
This is why we challenge each other.
We're keeping one another sharp.
We're saying, hey, like,
I got to trust you for everything and I want to trust you for everything.
So you're not feminine, are you?
And we answer back, No, I'm not feminine and we are okay.
Like, then I'm fine with the thing that you did or the thing that you said
or the way you always hold your drink like that. Like we're.
We don't care. It's just funny to pick on you.
And, you know, we keep one another sharp and strong that way.
It's kind of funny, too, though, because like in masculine culture,
we'll talk about a lot of things that are like very personal or that really matter,
but it's completely different than like what your wife is expecting.
You get out of that.
Like she'll be like, How's Justin or whatever?
I'm like, I don't know.
Should I know?
Like, or did you guys just talk for an hour, which was over 7 hours? Like
what?
What do you think I'm asking him about?
Like, you know, I'm not as I don't know, I'm not his mom, you know, cause
I feel like she's also baffled by, like, I have no idea of him.
Like, I have no idea.
I'm going to call Whitney and be like, he doesn't like her, you know?
I know they got the Internet the way how they do.
Problem.
I've got a good story with this.
So another couple and I and Natalie, we're hanging out years ago
and this was a this will and this brought were best friends at this time.
And Natalie and his wife, they were pretty close too.
But me and him were hanging out in front of the girls.
And, I don't know, just being ourselves when we get in the car and leave
and we're driving on the road, Natalie's like,
I think you really hurt Jonathan's feelings when you said,
you know, whatever.
And I was like, Oh my goodness, are you are you sure?
And this was early on.
So I'm like, I'm amosu.
I want to I'm like,
I don't want to assume she didn't know what she's talking about.
So I'm like, I pick up the phone and call Jonathan from another.
I was like, Bro, I want to tell you, man, when I said this, that
and the other, I did not mean anything by I love you, I respect you.
I was just goofing off.
If I if that bothered you in any way, man, I and I was sincere.
I wasn't like, if you got a problem that you're weak. Like, none of that.
I was just humble.
I was under him entirely, and he was like, Are you serious right now?
I was like, Yeah.
He was like, Don't you ever apologize to me? Ever?
And I was like,
Babe, I told you I knew he was.
Nice job, Melvin.
You're getting attached to this guy.
You're sleeping up there.
I said, you know what?
Back to the water heater.
Well, I think I think there's a very important distinction, though,
too, is that, yes, men love to tag and make fun of each other, but
there is a difference between that and men who pull you down and who are toxic.
You know, I've dealt with that in the past.
And, you know,
if you have a growth mindset and they don't
or if there's something in your life, they know you hold dear
and they they constantly mock and disrespect
that, that's there's a big difference between that.
And then, you know, the the fun clashing.
So if you have that in your life, please recognize the difference
and be able to discern that too. I think that's such
an important thing for men, especially for their mental health.
You know, I mean, it's it's a big deal when you have
when your group of guys are just like, hey, I've got this great idea.
And they're like, no, it's trash. Shut up.
You know, like, you shouldn't be the punching bag of the group.
Yeah. Or they're mocking you.
That's not respect or, you know, like they're doing something that they know
gets under your skin and they do it anyways because they think it's fun.
That's a different type of brotherhood that you don't need to be in.
So I tell you what, I watch that happen to you for good.
It's not brotherhood and it pisses me off.
And I kept asking, I'm like, Brandon, dude, these guys are not playing with you.
Like they're they legit are just terrible people.
Like, you need to cut them away.
That's a hard thing to do.
You know, you get comfortable with people and you think you can't replace
those people.
You can absolutely replace somebody if they're not a good person for you.
And I watched. Right.
And it was just like it broke my heart because Brandon so good to these people
and he gave them, you know, everything and these people just crapped on him.
And I'm like, I was the one that got angry, you know?
I was like, threatening them.
I was like, You want to mess with my twin?
Like, you know, But and then I,
you know, I later grew up and realized that wasn't the right response.
But, you know, it sucks to see good people go through that.
And you will go through that if you're not willing to cut those people
free, you just got to let them go and find someone better.
I mean, I think now it falls back to having sense
like like John Michael was discussing earlier.
You have to have a fence and when people cross it, you have to
you have to say, hey, that's not okay.
And I didn't do so.
A lot of that was on me and a lot of it was also me giving grace, but
I was giving grace in an unhealthy way.
So once I learned how to properly do
and set those fences up, I realized that it wasn't going to stop.
And then I had to address it in a real sense. So
yeah, that's a great point.
We noticed that in Jesus,
you know, a manipulator come to him and go,
You came to give your life, so let us throw you off the cliff.
Well, they tried to throw him off a cliff he wouldn't let them.
They wanted to stone him to death.
He also would not let them.
I thought you came to give your life as a ransom for many.
He laid down his life.
No one took it from him.
So that's another
in these fringe groups like Brandon saying if you're like, Oh, well,
you guys are always joking with me.
Hang on, brother. Do they also respect you?
Do they also give to you?
Is there a is there a give and take?
The friendship has given take marriage has give and take.
It's not just give and give and be taken from.
So if if they're joking with you, that's one thing.
But if you are the joke to them then these, these are toxic,
these are wicked people
unrighteous.
That that should be abandoned entirely without regret just like Jesus did.
He didn't allow himself to be manipulated.
You can give generously as a choice, but not have things extracted from you.
And we see that constantly. Everybody wanted to trap him.
They wanted to make him say things, want to make him do things.
He always did it his way.
Still very generous, very Christ like.
And yet he never obeyed anyone's instruction and expectation for him that,
hey, if you love us, if you like this, do this, say that, Make this happen.
He's done now.
I will. I will never obey your terms.
I'll always give to you, always provide for you as a loving leader.
He's got he had his fence, he had his framework, he had his purpose.
All right.
Well, I wanted to let you plug a little bit more on
where people can get engaged with you, John Michael, if they are curious
about the coaching or should they jump in the Facebook group
first or go straight to the website, What's the best way to do this?
Well, these people are podcast listeners.
So if they want to check out
the podcast is probably the best place to start for them.
The Family, a podcast.
And then yeah,
if you're a husband and you're married and you love the Lord Jesus Christ,
then you can get into the Facebook group, let you in there.
Lots of free content, lots of helpful stuff going on there.
Got over 3000 dudes in there right now, so that's cool.
And then of course, you can just go to the family, Captain Incom
and depending on what you're thinking, what's your feel?
If you're saying I want to get on the fast track and I actually want to get hear
more about the elite program, you can click that coaching tab
and then you can book a call
and we can see where you're at.
We'll talk about where you're at, where you're looking to go and getting you
on the fast track, moving forward to the next level
that you can thrive so that your wife can thrive,
so your kids can thrive, really can walk in God's best.
So check it out.
Hit me up. I would love to connect.
We got multiple ways, multiple We got multiple layers of brotherhood.
Like I said, that free group is the outer perimeter.
You can get as close as you want. You can come in.
We've got a monthly subscription that we open up every four or five months
that people can get into.
But then the elite program is open at all times for, you know, for those
who are qualified for it.
Yeah.
And I'll just, you know, as a as a personal, you know, success
story through that, through the program, I highly recommend that.
And even even if you think you're doing pretty well in your marriage,
you think you've got a pretty good handle on things, look through it and consider
working with them, because I know for me, you know, hey,
you know, I know what I'm doing.
And yeah, I'm pretty quick that there's a lot I didn't know I was doing.
Yeah.
So yeah, there's a lot to learn from John Michael
and I think the thing that makes this really stick out
from probably a lot of other programs is again,
I think it says one of the strongest gifts is being able
really look
into everyone's specific situations and understand all the details
and the context around that and give extremely practical advice
for how to navigate those different situations.
And his coaching is I believe it's inspired by God
and that he's not just doing what John wants.
He's he's listening to the Spirit and sharing that wisdom with you.
So I can't can't say enough good things about going through the 12 week program.
It definitely benefited me significantly.
And I'm just one of how many guys have gone through it now.
John Michael, Man,
maybe 175 or so at this point, probably nearly 100 now.
Yeah.
So it's a lot a lot of a lot of people have benefited from it. So,
yeah, give him a follow on Facebook and check out the group.
And if you're curious, go through those.
The free videos that you have up there are are all very very good and
the podcast So
John Michael any closing thoughts you want to to leave everyone with.
I just tell everybody go listen to the podcast episode
podcast episodes where Natalie is present
because I joked multiple times about her being chained to the water heater.
But I want to make sure people know, like, Natalie's the real proof, you know,
like, this guy's blowing his own trumpet, but is his wife actually thriving?
And you can make your own determination there, like,
is this a social media marriage
or is this woman actually thriving in the presence of the Lord?
And is this a flourishing household?
So go make those judgments.
It'll be pretty obvious.
And then what did you say, Josh?
I just
I guess, you know, if you had any closing thoughts
today. Oh, yeah.
I'll reiterate what I said earlier.
First of all, thank you, brothers.
I love being with you guys. It's a joy.
Thank you.
And it makes me happy both at the same time.
But to reiterate the point, I have that effect on people.
It's okay to make the point again for earlier the bigness,
the beauty and the glory of what's possible.
We haven't begun to scratch the surface and there's just so much more.
So I've seen marriages in crisis
and I've seen marriages that again were like mine.
You know, that's that's who the elite program certainly was built
for, is like things are good, things are fine.
I'm satisfied.
I'm telling you, don't be be thankful for
for where things are, but be hungry because God has so much more.
We have so much more than what we've been fed by culture.
We've been it can get so much sweeter if you say, Man,
mom and dad were a great example,
praise God, but don't stop and you don't need the family Captain.
Do it on your own. That would be great too.
But Do not stop whatever level you would assess.
Let's say things are at content for the next one.
Why does it matter?
Well, it's not just about your happiness.
It's about the mission of God in the earth.
Marriage is supposed to be the picture of Christ in his church.
So the world should be able to look into your marriage
and the world should be able to look in your household and say, What is that?
And you say, This is what Jesus in the church is like.
So then go, okay, sign me up for that
and so that your kids can go, Hey, look at what Mom and dad have.
Look at what our household is like to turn away from
this would be beyond stupid.
You know, It's
not like, well, you know, I was raised one way, but it's also enticing.
No, it's not.
It will look like a feast at the table of the Lord
compared to eating out of a porta john
when you're children have been raised in the presence of the glory of God,
where the masculine and feminine are happening and your daughters get to be
raised as daughters and your sons get to be raised as sons,
and they see Daddy and mommy loving each other
and they know that the presence of the
Lord is in their household, not just the principles of God,
but the presence of God.
It it is worthy is a worthy calling in.
It is the high calling.
It is the thing. What it was was to do with my life.
Brother, this is it.
Are you married?
Well, yeah.
Okay, well, your answer gets real simple.
You get to build a thriving, righteous
family culture that affects a thousand generations.
So keep continuing for it. Amen, brother.
I love.
And listen, I have to say,
if you're going to listen to this podcast, I would definitely check out Salt Church
as well. He has his sermons on there.
And my brother, I listen to your Apostles Creed series.
It was it was so fantastic.
And then the submission series was was fantastic as well.
So I thoroughly enjoyed that.
And if you're a sermon nerd like myself, man,
check out the Salt Church stuff, because praise God, I'm doing very well.
I mean, I'll go a little bit further
as every every married Christian man needs to listen to.
The series you did called ecstatically
and then listen to it first and then listen through it with your wife.
Yeah, it is
very, very good.
Um, you know, I think level sets for a lot of people.
Uh, chat the chat again, man, we're going to go through this episode.
We're going to get it right again.
Brandon Really like submission. Know that?
Seriously though, the ecstatically married is going to level set a lot of things
for your marriage that, you know, especially if you kind of grew up
in a wishy washy church setting where they didn't
clearly define husband and wife roles very well.
And I will say, ladies, the podcast can be a bit triggering
the the Family Captain podcast.
And the reason for that is it was all what's what's there now, anyway?
As the time of this recording, what's there now is it was all recorded
in the Facebook group so I was bro talking to pros.
So if it comes across as like crass, I'm sorry, I don't intend for it to.
If I had known
I was eventually going to share it with the larger
audience where my grandma would be able to hear it too,
I would have done some things differently.
And I've grown in wisdom over the past few years with this whole conversation.
I've definitely gone too far and I've repented for that.
But at the same time, like I have to bear, I'm going to bear the shame of it
instead of removing the whole thing and be like, No one should ever hear that.
Like, there's plenty of gold there.
If you can get over Jim Michaels personality getting in the way, then
it'll bless you.
Meanwhile, yeah, the sermons are great.
I just wanted to encourage him so that I appreciate you.
You know, it's always such a pleasure to have you on the the cast.
So thank you, brothers.
John Michael, it really is a pleasure
and I appreciate you working with me through your program
and then coming on the show here tonight and working with us.
They say, my God bless you.
All right, enough talk, dads.
We'll see in the next one climbing that mountain.
Thanks for tuning into this episode of the Present Fathers podcast.
Make sure you subscribe to our
YouTube channel and follow us on Spotify to catch all of our amazing episodes.
We will see you in the next one.